What's the real "Dhamma Eye"?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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starter
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What's the real "Dhamma Eye"?

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SN 22.90:

"... Then it occurred to the Venerable Channa: “I too think in this way: ‘Form is impermanent … consciousness is impermanent. Form is nonself … consciousness is nonself. All formations are impermanent; all phenomena are nonself.’ But my mind does not launch out upon the stilling of all formations (volitions), the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna; nor does it acquire confidence, settle down, and resolve on it. Instead, agitation and clinging arise and the mind turns back, thinking: ‘But who is my self?’ But such does not happen to one who sees the Dhamma. So who can teach me the Dhamma in such a way that I might see the Dhamma?”

... “All exists”: this is one extreme.

“All doesn’t exist”: this is the second extreme.

Avoiding these two extremes, the Realized One teaches by the middle way:

“Ignorance is a condition for volitions. volitions are a condition for consciousness. … That is how this entire mass of suffering originates.

When ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, volitions cease. … That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.”

“Reverend Ānanda, this is how it is when you have such venerables as spiritual companions to advise and instruct you out of kindness and compassion. And now that I have heard this Dhamma teaching of the Venerable Ānanda, I have made the breakthrough to the Dhamma.”

SA 262:

"...,阿難語闡陀言:「我親從佛聞,教摩訶迦旃延言:世人顛倒,依於二邊,若有、若無。世人取諸境界,心便計著。迦旃延!若不受,不取,不住,不計於我,此苦生時生、滅時滅。迦旃延!於此不疑、不惑,不由於他而能自如,是名正見如來所說。所以者何?迦旃延!如實正觀世間集者,則不生世間無見;如實正觀世間滅,則不生世間有見。迦旃延!如來離於二邊,說於中道:所謂此有故彼有,此生故彼生,謂緣無明有行,乃至生老病死、憂悲惱苦集。所謂此無故彼無,此滅故彼滅,謂無明滅則行滅,乃至生老病死、憂悲惱苦滅。」

尊者阿難說是法時,闡陀比丘遠塵、離垢,得法眼淨。爾時,闡陀比丘見法,得法,知法,起法,超越狐疑,不由於他,於大師教法得無所畏。恭敬合掌白尊者阿難言:「正應如是,如是智慧梵行,善知識教授教誡說法。我今從尊者阿難所,聞如是法,於一切行寂止、一切執著捨棄、渴愛盡、離欲、滅、涅槃,心樂正住解脫,不復轉還;不復見我,唯見正法。」
時,阿難語闡陀言:「汝今得大善利,於甚深佛法中得聖慧眼 。」"

As we can see from these two suttas, the real "Dhamma eye" is the breakthrough to the Dhamma, as Ven. Channa did. Thoughts such as ‘But who is my self?’ do not happen to one who sees the Dhamma, because the fetter of personality view has been broken.

IMHO, the real "Dhamma eye" should not be merely understanding "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation". It is not so difficult to understand that all formed elements have their beginning and end (成住坏灭,有始有终); such an understanding is not enough to break the fetter of personality view.
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Re: What's the real "Dhamma Eye"?

Post by pegembara »

:goodpost:
"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

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All due to causes and conditions.
Of all those things that from a cause arise, Tathagata the cause thereof has told; And how they cease to be, that too he tells, This is the teaching of the Great Recluse"

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SarathW
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Re: What's the real "Dhamma Eye"?

Post by SarathW »

IMHO, the real "Dhamma eye" should not be merely understanding "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation". It is not so difficult to understand that all formed elements have their beginning and end (成住坏灭,有始有终); such an understanding is not enough to break the fetter of personality view.
You have to see this in both formed (Rupa) and unformed (Nama) ie five clinging-aggregate.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: What's the real "Dhamma Eye"?

Post by confusedlayman »

starter wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 1:03 am SN 22.90:

"... Then it occurred to the Venerable Channa: “I too think in this way: ‘Form is impermanent … consciousness is impermanent. Form is nonself … consciousness is nonself. All formations are impermanent; all phenomena are nonself.’ But my mind does not launch out upon the stilling of all formations (volitions), the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna; nor does it acquire confidence, settle down, and resolve on it. Instead, agitation and clinging arise and the mind turns back, thinking: ‘But who is my self?’ But such does not happen to one who sees the Dhamma. So who can teach me the Dhamma in such a way that I might see the Dhamma?”

... “All exists”: this is one extreme.

“All doesn’t exist”: this is the second extreme.

Avoiding these two extremes, the Realized One teaches by the middle way:

“Ignorance is a condition for volitions. volitions are a condition for consciousness. … That is how this entire mass of suffering originates.

When ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, volitions cease. … That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.”

“Reverend Ānanda, this is how it is when you have such venerables as spiritual companions to advise and instruct you out of kindness and compassion. And now that I have heard this Dhamma teaching of the Venerable Ānanda, I have made the breakthrough to the Dhamma.”

SA 262:

"...,阿難語闡陀言:「我親從佛聞,教摩訶迦旃延言:世人顛倒,依於二邊,若有、若無。世人取諸境界,心便計著。迦旃延!若不受,不取,不住,不計於我,此苦生時生、滅時滅。迦旃延!於此不疑、不惑,不由於他而能自如,是名正見如來所說。所以者何?迦旃延!如實正觀世間集者,則不生世間無見;如實正觀世間滅,則不生世間有見。迦旃延!如來離於二邊,說於中道:所謂此有故彼有,此生故彼生,謂緣無明有行,乃至生老病死、憂悲惱苦集。所謂此無故彼無,此滅故彼滅,謂無明滅則行滅,乃至生老病死、憂悲惱苦滅。」

尊者阿難說是法時,闡陀比丘遠塵、離垢,得法眼淨。爾時,闡陀比丘見法,得法,知法,起法,超越狐疑,不由於他,於大師教法得無所畏。恭敬合掌白尊者阿難言:「正應如是,如是智慧梵行,善知識教授教誡說法。我今從尊者阿難所,聞如是法,於一切行寂止、一切執著捨棄、渴愛盡、離欲、滅、涅槃,心樂正住解脫,不復轉還;不復見我,唯見正法。」
時,阿難語闡陀言:「汝今得大善利,於甚深佛法中得聖慧眼 。」"

As we can see from these two suttas, the real "Dhamma eye" is the breakthrough to the Dhamma, as Ven. Channa did. Thoughts such as ‘But who is my self?’ do not happen to one who sees the Dhamma, because the fetter of personality view has been broken.

IMHO, the real "Dhamma eye" should not be merely understanding "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation". It is not so difficult to understand that all formed elements have their beginning and end (成住坏灭,有始有终); such an understanding is not enough to break the fetter of personality view.
True... its difficult to breakthrough in dhamma
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: What's the real "Dhamma Eye"?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 7:52 am unformed (Nama)
nama is not unformed
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starter
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Re: What's the real "Dhamma Eye"?

Post by starter »

Hi friends,

Thanks for your input and help. I'd just like to add that the understanding "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation" could also occur to annihilists.

Based upon the following search https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ev ... ning/20448, "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation" was not spoken by the Buddha.

Metta to all,

Starter
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Re: What's the real "Dhamma Eye"?

Post by Bundokji »

starter wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:00 pm I'd just like to add that the understanding "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation" could also occur to annihilists.
How so? As an insight or as a mere assertion? If you are referring to "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation" as an insight, then please explain how the annihilationist/nihilist have this insight.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: What's the real "Dhamma Eye"?

Post by confusedlayman »

So duebto ignorance the I thought based fabrication happens .. it is impermanent and hence self identidy is impermanent ? Which means there is no real being but only idea of being originated and cease?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: What's the real "Dhamma Eye"?

Post by confusedlayman »

starter wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 1:03 am SN 22.90:

"... Then it occurred to the Venerable Channa: “I too think in this way: ‘Form is impermanent … consciousness is impermanent. Form is nonself … consciousness is nonself. All formations are impermanent; all phenomena are nonself.’ But my mind does not launch out upon the stilling of all formations (volitions), the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna; nor does it acquire confidence, settle down, and resolve on it. Instead, agitation and clinging arise and the mind turns back, thinking: ‘But who is my self?’ But such does not happen to one who sees the Dhamma. So who can teach me the Dhamma in such a way that I might see the Dhamma?”

... “All exists”: this is one extreme.

“All doesn’t exist”: this is the second extreme.

Avoiding these two extremes, the Realized One teaches by the middle way:

“Ignorance is a condition for volitions. volitions are a condition for consciousness. … That is how this entire mass of suffering originates.

When ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, volitions cease. … That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.”

“Reverend Ānanda, this is how it is when you have such venerables as spiritual companions to advise and instruct you out of kindness and compassion. And now that I have heard this Dhamma teaching of the Venerable Ānanda, I have made the breakthrough to the Dhamma.”

SA 262:

"...,阿難語闡陀言:「我親從佛聞,教摩訶迦旃延言:世人顛倒,依於二邊,若有、若無。世人取諸境界,心便計著。迦旃延!若不受,不取,不住,不計於我,此苦生時生、滅時滅。迦旃延!於此不疑、不惑,不由於他而能自如,是名正見如來所說。所以者何?迦旃延!如實正觀世間集者,則不生世間無見;如實正觀世間滅,則不生世間有見。迦旃延!如來離於二邊,說於中道:所謂此有故彼有,此生故彼生,謂緣無明有行,乃至生老病死、憂悲惱苦集。所謂此無故彼無,此滅故彼滅,謂無明滅則行滅,乃至生老病死、憂悲惱苦滅。」

尊者阿難說是法時,闡陀比丘遠塵、離垢,得法眼淨。爾時,闡陀比丘見法,得法,知法,起法,超越狐疑,不由於他,於大師教法得無所畏。恭敬合掌白尊者阿難言:「正應如是,如是智慧梵行,善知識教授教誡說法。我今從尊者阿難所,聞如是法,於一切行寂止、一切執著捨棄、渴愛盡、離欲、滅、涅槃,心樂正住解脫,不復轉還;不復見我,唯見正法。」
時,阿難語闡陀言:「汝今得大善利,於甚深佛法中得聖慧眼 。」"

As we can see from these two suttas, the real "Dhamma eye" is the breakthrough to the Dhamma, as Ven. Channa did. Thoughts such as ‘But who is my self?’ do not happen to one who sees the Dhamma, because the fetter of personality view has been broken.

IMHO, the real "Dhamma eye" should not be merely understanding "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation". It is not so difficult to understand that all formed elements have their beginning and end (成住坏灭,有始有终); such an understanding is not enough to break the fetter of personality view.
Is there another version of same sutta?
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DooDoot
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Re: What's the real "Dhamma Eye"?

Post by DooDoot »

starter wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 1:03 am SN 22.90:


IMHO, the real "Dhamma eye" should not be merely understanding "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation". It is not so difficult to understand that all formed elements have their beginning and end (成住坏灭,有始有终); such an understanding is not enough to break the fetter of personality view.
the Dhamma Eye sees rather than thinks.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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confusedlayman
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Re: What's the real "Dhamma Eye"?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:41 am
starter wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 1:03 am SN 22.90:


IMHO, the real "Dhamma eye" should not be merely understanding "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation". It is not so difficult to understand that all formed elements have their beginning and end (成住坏灭,有始有终); such an understanding is not enough to break the fetter of personality view.
the Dhamma Eye sees rather than thinks.
How can u see impermanent of conciiusness?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: What's the real "Dhamma Eye"?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:43 am
How can u see impermanent of conciiusness?
Give up the “u”.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: What's the real "Dhamma Eye"?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:49 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:43 am
How can u see impermanent of conciiusness?
Give up the “u”.
Change in awareness of object indirectly means change in conciiusness also trhough inference knowlege?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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