What is the meaning of "dhamma" in SN 47.42 ???

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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DooDoot
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What is the meaning of "dhamma" in SN 47.42 ???

Post by DooDoot »

INTRODUCTION

Dear DW forum

The Pali words "samudayo" ("arising") & "atthaṅgamo" ("settling") are found in many suttas, such as:
SN 22.5 wrote:what is the origin of form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness?

Ko ca, bhikkhave, rūpassa samudayo, ko vedanāya samudayo, ko saññāya samudayo, ko saṅkhārānaṁ samudayo, ko viññāṇassa samudayo?

It’s when a mendicant approves, welcomes and keeps clinging.

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu abhinandati abhivadati ajjhosāya tiṭṭhati.

And what is the ending of form, feeling, perception, choices and consciousness?

ko viññāṇassa atthaṅgamo?

It’s when a mendicant doesn’t approve, welcome, or keep clinging.

Idha, bhikkhave, nābhinandati nābhivadati nājjhosāya tiṭṭhati.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.5/en/sujato
AN 4.41 wrote:And what is the way of developing immersion further that leads to the ending of defilements?
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā āsavānaṁ khayāya saṁvattati?

It’s when a mendicant meditates observing rise and fall in the five grasping aggregates.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu udayabbayānupassī viharati:

‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form.
‘iti rūpaṁ, iti rūpassa samudayo, iti rūpassa atthaṅgamo;

Such is feeling, such is the origin of feeling, such is the ending of feeling.
iti vedanā, iti vedanāya samudayo, iti vedanāya atthaṅgamo;

Such is perception, such is the origin of perception, such is the ending of perception.
iti saññā, iti saññāya samudayo, iti saññāya atthaṅgamo;

Such are choices, such is the origin of choices, such is the ending of choices.
iti saṅkhārā, iti saṅkhārānaṁ samudayo, iti saṅkhārānaṁ atthaṅgamo;

Such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the ending of consciousness.’
iti viññāṇaṁ, iti viññāṇassa samudayo, iti viññāṇassa atthaṅgamo’ti.

This is the way of developing immersion further that leads to the ending of defilements.
Ayaṁ, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā āsavānaṁ khayāya saṁvattati.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.41/en/sujato
SN 12.44 wrote:And what, mendicants, is the origin of the world?
“Katamo ca, bhikkhave, lokassa samudayo?

Eye consciousness arises dependent on the eye and sights. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a condition for feeling. Feeling is a condition for craving. Craving is a condition for grasping....etc

And what is the ending of the world?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, lokassa atthaṅgamo?

Eye consciousness arises dependent on the eye and sights. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a condition for feeling.
Feeling is a condition for craving. When that craving fades away and ceases with nothing left over, grasping ceases (tassāyeva taṇhāya asesavirāganirodhā upādānanirodho.... This is the ending of the world. Ayaṁ kho, bhikkhave, lokassa atthaṅgamo.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.44/en/sujato
Therefore, the above suttas say samudayo is the wrong path and nirodho/atthaṅgamo are the right path.
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asahi
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Re: What is the meaning of "dhamma" in SN 47.42 ???

Post by asahi »

Principles originate from attention.
Manasikārasamudayā dhammānaṁ samudayo;
When attention ends, principles end.”
manasikāranirodhā dhammānaṁ atthaṅgamo”ti.

Btw , for this sutta the pali version is not a complete one .
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Re: What is the meaning of "dhamma" in SN 47.42 ???

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asahi wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:00 pm Principles originate from attention.
Manasikārasamudayā dhammānaṁ samudayo;
When focus ends, principles end.”
manasikāranirodhā dhammānaṁ atthaṅgamo”ti.
Principles appears wrong. I will post more soon. :smile:
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Re: What is the meaning of "dhamma" in SN 47.42 ???

Post by DooDoot »

SN 47.42 also revolves around the terms "samudayo" ("arising") & "atthaṅgamo" ("settling").

Translated by Ven. Sujato & Bodhi, SN 47.42 says:
Intro wrote:“Catunnaṁ, bhikkhave, satipaṭṭhānānaṁ [dative or genitive] samudayañca atthaṅgamañca desessāmi.
“Mendicants, I will teach you the origin and the ending of the four kinds of mindfulness meditation.
“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the origination and the passing away of the four establishments of mindfulness.
Since samudayo is the wrong path of craving and nirodho/atthaṅgamo are the right path of ending craving; how can there be the "samudayo" of satipaṭṭhānā? :shrug:

Note: Many suttas use the term uppāda (ud + pad)/uppādāya when referring to the "arising" of the Path rather than samudaya (saṁ + udaya). :?:

:!: Possibly the translation of "satipaṭṭhānānaṁ" should be in "dative case" rather than in "genitive case". :idea: :!:
Part 1 wrote:Ko ca, bhikkhave, kāyassa samudayo?
And what is the origin of the body?
And what, bhikkhus, is the origination of the body?

Āhārasamudayā kāyassa samudayo;
The body originates from food.
With the origination of nutriment there is the origination of the body.

āhāranirodhā kāyassa atthaṅgamo.
When food ceases, the body ends.
With the cessation of nutriment there is the passing away of the body.
Many suttas say nutriment originates from craving, as follows:
MN 38 wrote:Solid food, whether coarse or fine; contact is the second, mental intention the third, and consciousness the fourth.
Kabaḷīkāro āhāro oḷāriko vā sukhumo vā, phasso dutiyo, manosañcetanā tatiyā, viññāṇaṁ catutthaṁ.

What is the source, origin, birthplace, and inception of these four fuels [nutriments]?
Ime ca, bhikkhave, cattāro āhārā kiṁnidānā kiṁsamudayā kiṁjātikā kiṁpabhavā?

Craving.

https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/sujato#15.3
Therefore, SN 47.42 above appears to say the body originates (samudayo) due to craving, which sounds OK. :thumbsup:
Part 2 wrote:Phassasamudayā vedanānaṁ samudayo;
Feelings originate from contact.
“With the origination of contact there is the origination of feeling.

phassanirodhā vedanānaṁ atthaṅgamo.
When contact ceases, feelings end.
With the cessation of contact there is the passing away of feeling.
The above also sounds OK. :thumbsup:
Part 3 wrote:Nāmarūpasamudayā cittassa samudayo;
The mind originates from name and form.
With the origination of name-and-form there is the origination of mind.

nāmarūpanirodhā cittassa atthaṅgamo.
When name and form cease, the mind ends.
With the cessation of name-and-form there is the passing away of mind.
The above also sounds OK, that is, craving affecting nama-rup causes defilements of the citta to originate. :thumbsup:
Part 4 wrote:Manasikārasamudayā dhammānaṁ samudayo;
Principles originate from attention.
With the origination of attention there is the origination of phenomena.

manasikāranirodhā dhammānaṁ atthaṅgamo”ti.
When focus ends, principles end.”
With the cessation of attention there is the passing away of phenomena.

https://suttacentral.net/sn47.42/en/sujato
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.42/en/bodhi
Parts 1 to 3 above, of SN 47.42, appear to conform with the Dhamma, namely, they refer to the arising & ceasing of the unwholesome.

Therefore, it appears "dhamma" in Part 4 may refer to "mental states". :shrug:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is the meaning of "dhamma" in SN 47.42 ???

Post by mikenz66 »

Are Bhikku Bodhi's footnotes helpful?
“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the origination and the passing away of the four establishments of mindfulness.
Footnote: Here satipaṭṭhāna obviously refers to the four objects of mindfulness.
...
“With the origination of attention there is the origination of phenomena. With the cessation of attention there is the passing away of phenomena.”
Footnote: Manasikārasamudayā dhammānaṃ samudayo. Spk: The phenomena of the enlightenment factors originate through careful attention; the phenomena of the hindrances through careless attention. Cp. AN V 107,6-7: Manasikārasambhavā sabbe dhammā, phassasamudayā sabbe dhammā; “All phenomena come into being through attention; all phenomena originate from contact.”
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Re: What is the meaning of "dhamma" in SN 47.42 ???

Post by DooDoot »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:31 pm Are Bhikku Bodhi's footnotes helpful?
Not really because they appear contrary to how the relevant words are used in sutta. Anyway, I've probably given up on this. SN 47.42 might be one of those quirky suttas without no equivalent put together by the compilers of the SN, where they mix & match the various teachings in the SN, which can be confusing.

If i ignore how the relevant words are usually used, yes, it is very simple, even childish, namely:

1. the physical body exists due to food
2. feelings exist due to contact
3. citta (the defilement/purity of consciousness) exists due to namarupa (mind-body)
4. dhamma principle exist due to attention (such as in SN 12.10, which describes the Buddha discovering Dhamma using attention)

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:31 pmAN V 107,6-7: Manasikārasambhavā sabbe dhammā, phassasamudayā sabbe dhammā; “All phenomena come into being through attention; all phenomena originate from contact.”
Yes, the above from AN 10.58 refers to wholesome dhammas. But the word "samudaya" is not used above. The word is "sambhavā".
mikenz66 wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:31 pmFootnote: Manasikārasamudayā dhammānaṃ samudayo. Spk: The phenomena of the enlightenment factors originate through careful attention; the phenomena of the hindrances through careless attention.
Yes, the above is true. But when Dependent Origination (MN 9) uses the term nāmarūpasamudayo, where nāmarūpa includes attention, the term nāmarūpasamudayo refers to careless attention conditioned by ignorance. As i suggested, the term 'samudayo' generally refers to the arising of the unwholesome. The Pali for the "arising" of the enlightenment factors is: bojjhaṅgassa uppādāya (arising), uppannassa (arisen) vā bojjhaṅgassa.

My impression is Bhikkhu Bodhi & Sujato have not looked at his carefully enough. It is very weird to use words such as "nirodha" and "atthaṅgama" in refence to the absence of Dhamma Truth.
Principles originate from attention.
Manasikārasamudayā dhammānaṁ samudayo;

When focus ends, principles end.
manasikāranirodhā dhammānaṁ atthaṅgamo
Regards :smile:
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Re: What is the meaning of "dhamma" in SN 47.42 ???

Post by SarathW »

I would say that anything arising in mind and perceive in mind is Dhamma.
Even the so-called matter is Dhamma because without mind we can't perceive them.
This also includes all Niyama Dhamma as well. (citta,kamma,utu,biju and Dhamma)
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Re: What is the meaning of "dhamma" in SN 47.42 ???

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SarathW wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:35 pm I would say that anything arising in mind and perceive in mind is Dhamma.
the word manasikāra in Pali is generally not used as a synonym for perception
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Re: What is the meaning of "dhamma" in SN 47.42 ???

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DooDoot wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:20 pm
Since samudayo is the wrong path of craving and nirodho/atthaṅgamo are the right path of ending craving; how can there be the "samudayo" of satipaṭṭhānā? :shrug:

Note: Many suttas use the term uppāda (ud + pad)/uppādāya when referring to the "arising" of the Path rather than samudaya (saṁ + udaya). :?:

:!: Possibly the translation of "satipaṭṭhānānaṁ" should be in "dative case" rather than in "genitive case". :idea: :!:
I dont know pali but imo the samudayo
refer to the 1st part of the four group per
satipaṭṭhānā formula and nirodho/atthaṅgamo are referring to the 2nd part of each group of the satipaṭṭhānā formula and samudaya should not to be taken as a whole per satipaṭṭhānā formula itself . The sutta contents is ok .


Ps .
Perhaps the better translation :
The origination and the passing away "with regards to" the four establishments of mindfulness.
:thinking:
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Re: What is the meaning of "dhamma" in SN 47.42 ???

Post by Sam Vara »

asahi wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:44 am
DooDoot wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:20 pm
Since samudayo is the wrong path of craving and nirodho/atthaṅgamo are the right path of ending craving; how can there be the "samudayo" of satipaṭṭhānā? :shrug:

Note: Many suttas use the term uppāda (ud + pad)/uppādāya when referring to the "arising" of the Path rather than samudaya (saṁ + udaya). :?:

:!: Possibly the translation of "satipaṭṭhānānaṁ" should be in "dative case" rather than in "genitive case". :idea: :!:
I dont know pali but imo the samudayo
refer to the 1st part of the four group per
satipaṭṭhānā formula and nirodho/atthaṅgamo are referring to the 2nd part of each group of the satipaṭṭhānā formula and samudaya should not to be taken as a whole per satipaṭṭhānā formula itself . The sutta contents is ok .


Ps .
Perhaps the better translation :
The origination and the passing away "with regards to" the four establishments of mindfulness.
:thinking:
I think if the meaning were "with regard to", it would be in the locative case, which is entirely different.
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Re: What is the meaning of "dhamma" in SN 47.42 ???

Post by asahi »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:05 am I think if the meaning were "with regard to", it would be in the locative case, which is entirely different.
In the agama the translation

四念處集
four mindfulness dwelling on origination

四念處沒
four mindfulness dwelling on ending

What do you think ?

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Re: What is the meaning of "dhamma" in SN 47.42 ???

Post by nirodh27 »

Manasikārasamudayā dhammānaṁ samudayo; manasikāranirodhā dhammānaṁ atthaṅgamo”ti.

Side question: Why can't dhamma simply mean teachings of the Buddha here? It is the pali that precludes this option? Manasikara (attention, thinking about, reasoning about the data that you have) were and is a condition for the teachings to be born in the world and persist, and the passing away of manasikara will be the end of the Dhamma as a teaching and as a path.

In many points manasikara is stated as a condition for Right View (aka the teachings = Dhamma) and the Noble Eightfold Path (aka the teachings = Dhamma) and in SN12.65 (https://suttacentral.net/sn12.65/en/sujato) manasikara is seen to be the de facto cause/condition/tool of the origination of the path of awakening (aka the teaching = Dhamma).

SN 12.65
Then, through proper attention, I comprehended with wisdom: Tassa mayhaṁ, bhikkhave, yoniso manasikārā ahu paññāya abhisamayo:

MN43:
“Venerable, how many conditions are there for the arising of right perspective?”

“Venerable, there are two conditions for the arising of right perspective: the voice of another, and wise manasikara(attention, thinking, reasoning). Venerable, these are the two conditions for the arising of right perspective.”

Also:

The Yoniso Manasikāra Sampadā Sutta, using the beautiful imagery of dawn as the harbinger of
sun-rise, points to how wise attention precedes, that is, leads on to the arising of the noble eightfold path
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Re: What is the meaning of "dhamma" in SN 47.42 ???

Post by Spiny Norman »

I think SN 47.42 is basically saying that you need a mind to practice satipatthana.
Dhamma here appears to be the mental phenomena which are objects of attention.

The thesis that samudayo only applies to unwholesome origination looks flawed to me. Like many of these Pali terms, the usage and meaning will vary.
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Re: What is the meaning of "dhamma" in SN 47.42 ???

Post by asahi »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:38 am The thesis that samudayo only applies to unwholesome origination looks flawed to me. Like many of these Pali terms, the usage and meaning will vary.
So samudaya not restricted applying to specific arising ? Any references ?
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Re: What is the meaning of "dhamma" in SN 47.42 ???

Post by DooDoot »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:38 am The thesis that samudayo only applies to unwholesome origination looks flawed to me. Like many of these Pali terms, the usage and meaning will vary.
Unlike the opening posts of this topic, the above appears unsubstantiated & not adequate for the sake of serious discussion.
asahi wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:31 amSo samudaya not restricted applying to specific arising ? Any references ?
It appears we know only Ven. Sujato translated 'dhamma' in SN 47.42 as 'principles', therefore the Ven. believes 'wholesome dhammas' can 'samudaya'. I recall my previous research found the only sutta supporting the idea wholesome dhammas can 'samudaya' is MN 10/DN 22, which Ven. Sujato called a 'hoax' ('Piltdown Sutta). My impression is SN 47.42 is of the same belated genre as MN 10/DN 22. I did start a topic on this matter, once, here. :smile:
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