self-mettā is not the buddha's teaching

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salayatananirodha
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self-mettā is not the buddha's teaching

Post by salayatananirodha »

have pondered this particular issue for quite a while..
i can't help but notice that almost all teachers i've come across teaching mettā have included a self-mettā component. such as, 'may i be well & happy'
they often even say that before wishing any other beings well.
i read 'deliverance of the heart' (https://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-cont ... _Heart.pdf) a little more than 3 years ago, and i agree with venerable ñāṇananda. i even tried to abandon what he said to look for other evidence and arrived at a more appreciative understanding of his argument.
self-mettā is not the buddha's teaching. i am going to post the sutta below because i think it needs to be seen.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.08.budd.html wrote:[He] Who seeks to promote his welfare,
Having glimpsed the state of perfect peace,
Should be able, honest and upright,
Gentle in speech, meek and not proud.

Contented, he ought to be easy to support,
Not over-busy, and simple in living.
Tranquil his senses, let him be prudent,
And not brazen, nor fawning on families.

Also, he must refrain from any action
That gives the wise reason to reprove him.
(Then let him cultivate the thought:)
May all be well and secure,
May all beings be happy!

Whatever living creatures there be,
Without exception, weak or strong,
Long, huge or middle-sized,
Or short, minute or bulky,

Whether visible or invisible,
And those living far or near,
The born and those seeking birth,
May all beings be happy!

Let none deceive or decry
His fellow anywhere;
Let none wish others harm
In resentment or in hate.

Just as with her own life
A mother shields from hurt
Her own son, her only child,
Let all-embracing thoughts
For all beings be yours.

Cultivate an all-embracing mind of love
For all throughout the universe,
In all its height, depth and breadth —
Love that is untroubled
And beyond hatred or enmity.

As you stand, walk, sit or lie,
So long as you are awake,
Pursue this awareness with your might:
It is deemed the Divine State here.

Holding no more to wrong beliefs,
With virtue and vision of the ultimate,
And having overcome all sensual desire,
Never in a womb is one born again.
there are four other translations to pick from on that link; i find them all to be mostly the same. i think it's no coincidence that i hear less of this original teaching and more of modern methods. buddha predicted this (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html)
Screen Shot 2021-07-02 at 1.36.52 PM.png
perhaps i have higher standards than i should 2000+ years after the buddha passed away?
the image i get from karaniya sutta is that a love embracing all beings is selfless, even a sacrifice. instead of focusing on your own (material) welfare you wish for the welfare of others. like a mother gives up and sacrifices much for her children, you cultivate a feeling of love that is more fulfilling than your own self-interest.

this sutta demonstrates the reciprocal relationship between self and others. in the beginning it states that this (the rest of the sutta) is what you do in order to attain your own happiness. and this is consistent with another sutta, the simile of the acrobat
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.019.olen.html wrote:[The Buddha said:]
Just like the assistant Medakathalika said to her master:
"I will look after myself,"
so should you, monks, practice the establishment of mindfulness.
You should (also) practice the establishment of mindfulness (by saying)
"I will look after others."

Looking after oneself, one looks after others.
Looking after others, one looks after oneself.

And how does one look after others by looking after oneself?
By practicing (mindfulness), by developing (it), by doing (it) a lot.
And how does one look after oneself by looking after others?
By patience, by non-harming, by loving kindness, by caring (for others).
(Thus) looking after oneself, one looks after others;
and looking after others, one looks after oneself.
{thanissaro's translation says 'the practice' rather than mindfulness}

doing mettā is how you look after yourself by looking after others. (this is what should be done for he who seeks to promote his own welfare) looking after others by looking after oneself is a separate treatment

i did find one particular sutta regarding one's self-interest.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.159.than.html wrote:"'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'I hope that I, too, will — through the ending of the fermentations — enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.' Then he eventually abandons craving, having relied on craving. 'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.

"'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now. Then why not me?' Then he eventually abandons conceit, having relied on conceit. 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.
except that it is a spiritual self-interest. there is no sacrifice of one's practice to cultivate selfless love for all beings. even in giving up one's life a mother does no harm to herself. there's nothing that will serve you better by not relinquishing it. giving up is a gain.
you gain the share to others that you give of happiness and wellbeing
Screen Shot 2021-07-02 at 2.12.19 PM.png
Screen Shot 2021-07-02 at 2.12.29 PM.png
Last edited by salayatananirodha on Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: self-mettā is not the buddha's teaching

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I think it's a truism that charity begins at home. If you don't like yourself, you're not going to like other people.
You might have noticed that people who are comfortable with themselves are really easy to be around.
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Re: self-mettā is not the buddha's teaching

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salayatananirodha wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:16 pm have pondered this particular issue for quite a while..
i can't help but notice that almost all teachers i've come across teaching mettā have included a self-mettā component. such as, 'may i be well & happy'
they often even say that before wishing any other beings well.
...
I don't disagree with you, but offer 3 thoughts on this.

First, it might be that the desire for ourselves to be well and happy is already contained, or at least implied, in the Karaniya Metta Sutta that you quote: [He] Who seeks to promote his welfare

Second, although the wish that oneself be happy is not in the suttas, it does I think originate in the Visuddhimagga.
visualizing objects, one after the other, by taking the path of least resistance, in a graduated sequence, which progressively widens the circle and therewith the mind itself. The Visuddhimagga is emphatic about this order. According to Acariya Buddhaghosa, one must start the meditation on metta by visualizing oneself, and thereafter a person for whom one has reverence, then one's dear ones, then neutral people, then hostile persons. As one radiates thoughts of love in this order, the mind breaks all barriers between oneself, a revered one, a dear one, a neutral one and a hostile one. Everyone comes to be looked upon equally with the eye of loving-kindness.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el365.html

Third, although it might as a technique feature in a lot of modern instructions, that might actually be a really good thing. Just like one can't find counting or mantras like Bud-dho in the suttas, they are a good way of settling the mind as one begins anapanasati. We might see the suttas as describing where we want to go to, and leaving some of the details on how to get there to our own discretion.
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Re: self-mettā is not the buddha's teaching

Post by salayatananirodha »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:21 pm I think it's a truism that charity begins at home. If you don't like yourself, you're not going to like other people.
You might have noticed that people who are comfortable with themselves are really easy to be around.
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Re: self-mettā is not the buddha's teaching

Post by salayatananirodha »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:41 pm Third, although it might as a technique feature in a lot of modern instructions, that might actually be a really good thing. Just like one can't find counting or mantras like Bud-dho in the suttas, they are a good way of settling the mind as one begins anapanasati. We might see the suttas as describing where we want to go to, and leaving some of the details on how to get there to our own discretion.
yeah of course you can do things that are not explicitly outlined, but this is counter to the intention of actual mettā because it is narcissistic.

i will share what i have tried. if i am feeling a pain, i will think 'may all beings be free from pain'. if i perceive someone's discomfort, i will think 'may all beings be well,' because that's all i know to do. it's all about cultivating my luminous mind. if i am worried i will think may beings be free from whatever causes of stress. i haven't come to try to send this in six directions. just forcing myself to think benevolent thoughts with regard to other beings. for the purpose of eliminating hatred, but it works on excessive self-interest too.

self-loathing is also narcissism and it can be cured by the dhamma. this is only something you can speak of to other beings but you yourself can train your mind. i don't think it's true that beings don't want their own happiness, but you have to come to define what that is for you first
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Post by sunnat »

'All beings' is other beings and this being. As sam pointed out the first sentence sets the stage.
It is very much in ones interest to be friendly.
The whole path is in ones own interest. Metta is an important part of that.
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Re: self-mettā is not the buddha's teaching

Post by salayatananirodha »

no, it does not say to think a well wish for yourself. it's stated that this is the method for one to attain one's own happiness; let him think 'may all beings be happy'
anyway, it is extra mental work for a being to imagine being another being in order to wish oneself well. it's just delusion :stirthepot:
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Re: self-mettā is not the buddha's teaching

Post by SarathW »

Buddha recommended Brahma vihara (Metta, Kauna, Muditha, Upekkha) to lay people.
I think Ariya people (Sotapanna etc.) do not practice Metta but Karuna and Upekkha.
Normally Metta is practiced as an antidote for anger and it applies to laypeople.

Are we going to practice Brahmavihara for ourselves?

However, it is a good practice to include yourself when practicing Metta.
I think suicide is a result of self-hatred.
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Re: self-mettā is not the buddha's teaching

Post by salayatananirodha »

self-metta is not the cure for self-hatred imo
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Re: self-mettā is not the buddha's teaching

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salayatananirodha wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:16 pm i agree with venerable ñāṇananda... self-mettā is not the buddha's teaching.
hi. i doubt the suttas ever use the term 'self-metta' because the word 'metta' is probably simply not the right terminology for describing the self-love that motivates the practise to end suffering. For example, in English, one would not use words such as 'charity' or 'altruism' towards oneself. For example, the following suttas use the word "piya" ("love") in relation to "rakkhā" ("looking after"; "protection"; "care"):
If you’d only love yourself,
Attānañce piyaṁ jaññā,

you’d look after yourself right well.
rakkheyya naṁ surakkhitaṁ;

In one of the night’s three watches,
Tiṇṇaṁ aññataraṁ yāmaṁ,

an astute person would remain alert.
paṭijaggeyya paṇḍito.

https://suttacentral.net/dhp157-166/en/sujato
Then, knowing the meaning of this, on that occasion the Buddha recited this verse:
Atha kho bhagavā etamatthaṁ viditvā tāyaṁ velāyaṁ imaṁ gāthaṁ abhāsi:

“Having explored every quarter with the mind,
“Sabbā disā anuparigamma cetasā,

one finds no-one dearer than oneself.
Nevajjhagā piyataramattanā kvaci;

Likewise for others, each holds themselves dear;
Evaṁ piyo puthu attā paresaṁ,

so one who loves themselves would harm no other.”
Tasmā na hiṁse paramattakāmo”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn3.8/en/sujato
And how do you look after others by looking after yourself?
Kathañca, bhikkhave, attānaṁ rakkhanto paraṁ rakkhati?

By development, cultivation, and practice of meditation.
Āsevanāya, bhāvanāya, bahulīkammena—

And how do you look after yourself by looking after others?
Kathañca, bhikkhave, paraṁ rakkhanto attānaṁ rakkhati?

By acceptance, harmlessness, love, and sympathy.
Khantiyā, avihiṁsāya, mettacittatāya, anudayatāya—
evaṁ kho, bhikkhave, paraṁ rakkhanto attānaṁ rakkhati.

https://suttacentral.net/sn47.19/en/sujato
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salayatananirodha wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:16 pm i think it needs to be seen.
I doubt it is really that important but lets have a look.
salayatananirodha wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:16 pm buddha predicted this ... perhaps i have higher standards than i should 2000+ years after the buddha passed away?
This topic appears to be a quibble about nothing much. The Ani Sutta you quoted is not about metta. The Ani Sutta is about how Buddhists would stop teaching Emptiness & Supramudane (Lokuttara) Dhamma but emphasise Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga, rebirth, etc.
salayatananirodha wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:16 pmthe image i get from karaniya sutta is that a love embracing all beings is selfless, even a sacrifice.
The sutta appears to never say to sacrifice. The mother metaphor appears only to describe an intensity of practise rather than is about sacrificing.
salayatananirodha wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:16 pminstead of focusing on your own (material) welfare you wish for the welfare of others. like a mother gives up and sacrifices much for her children, you cultivate a feeling of love that is more fulfilling than your own self-interest.
Maybe. But it is not saying metta is jumping on hand grenades to save others, as a mother would do.
salayatananirodha wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:16 pmthis sutta demonstrates the reciprocal relationship between self and others. in the beginning it states that this (the rest of the sutta) is what you do in order to attain your own happiness. and this is consistent with another sutta, the simile of the acrobat ... doing mettā is how you look after yourself by looking after others. (this is what should be done for he who seeks to promote his own welfare) looking after others by looking after oneself is a separate treatment
the above sutta appears to support my original point about terminology, namely, metta appears to always refer to an external attitude towards others.
salayatananirodha wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:16 pmi did find one particular sutta regarding one's self-interest.
"'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now. Then why not me?' Then he eventually abandons conceit, having relied on conceit. 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.
as i suggested, obviously the word for "self-interest" in Pali is not "metta". However, this does not mean Dhamma does not teach self-interest because the Bamboo Acrobat sutta you posted says: "How does one look after onself?" Answer: "By development of satipatthana".
salayatananirodha wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:16 pmexcept that it is a spiritual self-interest. there is no sacrifice of one's practice to cultivate selfless love for all beings.
and?
salayatananirodha wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:16 pm even in giving up one's life a mother does no harm to herself.
the buddha never teaches to give up one's life for others. you appear to be misconstruing the Metta Sutta
salayatananirodha wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:16 pmthere's nothing that will serve you better by not relinquishing it.
the Buddha never taught to relinquish Satipatthana practise (which "looks after oneself") and to travel to Africa to save starving children who are dying a war zone
salayatananirodha wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:16 pmgiving up is a gain.
the Buddha never taught to relinquish Satipatthana practise (which "looks after oneself")
salayatananirodha wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:16 pmyou gain the share to others that you give of happiness and wellbeing
how can you have happiness & well-being to share if you don't practise satipatthana? the above idea is sounding like Mahayana :smile:
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