All Exists

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Ceisiwr
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All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

As is well known, but usually not well understood, the Sarvāstivādins of old accepted a theory where the dhammas existed in the 3 times. Past dhammas exist, present dhammas exist and future dhammas exist. The dhammas always exist and cannot be destroyed, yet they exist in a form of mutual conditionality where no conditioned dhamma alone can discharge it's effects throughout time without the aid of the others. Interesting to note is how popular this theory was, since it was also accepted by the Pudgalavādins. The major split being simply regarding the "person" proposed by the latter. This theory of course didn't come out of nowhere. It was developed in order to answer how past actions can bring results in the present and future. The argument goes that if past actions have ceased there is no way for them to have effects today. Past actions must then still exist, and so dhammas exist in the past and future. A further argument put forward by the Vaibhāṣikas relates to cognition. All of us can remember the past. Different forms, feelings and so on. Since consciousness always requires and object in order to cognise, and since said dhammas are in the past then the dhammas must still exist in the past in some form. The past then exists, as does the future, otherwise there could be no cognition of past events. Theravāda obviously rejects this argument, and the Vaibhāṣikas actually refer to Ven. Moggaliputtatissa as someone who proposes "cognition of nothing", meaning awareness of past dhammas without an object (since they have ceased). The Theravādin reply to how kamma functions across time and how we can be aware of past events is the Bhavaṅga. Yogācāra and the Sautrāntikas proposed something similar with their "store-house consciousness" and "seed" theories. My intention of this post was to hear how Suttavādins here address this problem, and what their reply would be to both the Vaibhāṣikas and Theravāda/Yogācāra/Sautrāntikas? It seems to me that these are the only options available to answer the problem, but what do others think?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:49 pmMy intention of this post was to hear how Suttavādins here address this problem [...]
I am not a "Suttavādin," but I can think of a response.
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:49 pm[...] and what their reply would be to both the Vaibhāṣikas and Theravāda/Yogācāra/Sautrāntikas? It seems to me that these are the only options available to answer the problem, but what do others think?
I can generate a reply based on what you've said is the classical Theravādin stance as I've understood you. When the mind focuses on the past, it focuses on a concept, not a dhamma in the truest sense, because concepts aren't dhammas. I don't agree with this, but as far as I've understood, this is something you hold to and identify as "classically" Theravādin.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

The consequence of "concepts aren't dhammas" is that the mind has two possible sets to choose from of possible objects of cognition, namely dhammas and non-dhamma concepts.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
asahi
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Re: All Exists

Post by asahi »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:49 pm As is well known, but usually not well understood, the Sarvāstivādins of old accepted a theory where the dhammas existed in the 3 times. Past dhammas exist, present dhammas exist and future dhammas exist. The dhammas always exist and cannot be destroyed, yet they exist in a form of mutual conditionality where no conditioned dhamma alone can discharge it's effects throughout time without the aid of the others. Interesting to note is how popular this theory was, since it was also accepted by the Pudgalavādins. The major split being simply regarding the "person" proposed by the latter. This theory of course didn't come out of nowhere. It was developed in order to answer how past actions can bring results in the present and future. The argument goes that if past actions have ceased there is no way for them to have effects today. Past actions must then still exist, and so dhammas exist in the past and future. A further argument put forward by the Vaibhāṣikas relates to cognition. All of us can remember the past. Different forms, feelings and so on. Since consciousness always requires and object in order to cognise, and since said dhammas are in the past then the dhammas must still exist in the past in some form. The past then exists, as does the future, otherwise there could be no cognition of past events. Theravāda obviously rejects this argument, and the Vaibhāṣikas actually refer to Ven. Moggaliputtatissa as someone who proposes "cognition of nothing", meaning awareness of past dhammas without an object (since they have ceased). The Theravādin reply to how kamma functions across time and how we can be aware of past events is the Bhavaṅga. Yogācāra and the Sautrāntikas proposed something similar with their "store-house consciousness" and "seed" theories. My intention of this post was to hear how Suttavādins here address this problem, and what their reply would be to both the Vaibhāṣikas and Theravāda/Yogācāra/Sautrāntikas? It seems to me that these are the only options available to answer the problem, but what do others think?
“Kassapa, if one thinks, ‘The one who acts is the same as the one who experiences the result,’ then one asserts with reference to one existing from the beginning: ‘Suffering is created by oneself.’ When one asserts thus, this amounts to eternalism. But, Kassapa, if one thinks, ‘The one who acts is one, the one who experiences the result is another,’ then one asserts with reference to one stricken by feeling: ‘Suffering is created by another.’ When one asserts thus, this amounts to annihilationism.
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Re: All Exists

Post by Pondera »

A) don’t worry about it.

For example:
"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas[1] is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...[2]

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Evidently the abhidhammikas from all of the schools you have called into question did not seem to get the point. The exact workings of kamma are beyond conjecture. Assigning “reality” or “mere concept” to the Past (for the sake of explaining the mechanics of kamma) is not relevant to the cessation of suffering.

The Buddha did not teach the underlying mechanics of kamma results. He knew them (as only a fully enlightened Buddha could) but he excluded them from his succinct message.

B) It’s not relevant.

For example:

Concerning https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html sutta, Thinassaro Bhikkhu has the following to say:
The first point concerns the Buddhist teaching on action, or kamma (karma). The general understanding of this teaching is that actions from the past determine present pleasure and pain, while present actions determine future pleasure and pain. Or, to quote a recent book devoted to the topic, "Karma is the moral principle that governs human conduct. It declares that our present experience is conditioned by our past conduct and that our present conduct will condition our future experience." This, however, does not accurately describe the Buddha's teaching on karma, and is instead a fairly accurate account of the Nigantha teaching, which the Buddha explicitly refutes here. As he interrogates the Niganthas, he makes the point that if all pleasure and pain experienced in the present were determined by past action, why is it that they now feel the pain of harsh treatment when they practice asceticism, and no pain of harsh treatment when they don't? If past action were the sole determining factor, then present action should have no effect on their present experience of pleasure or pain.

- Thinassaro
The Jains were of the belief that they could extinguish bad kamma from the past through present day austerities.

The Buddha does not say that pain and pleasure are NOT conditioned by past kamma. But he DOES say that the extinguishing of all kamma is accomplished in the present.

For example:
"'So, friends, it seems that you don't know that you existed in the past, and that you did not not exist... you don't know what is the abandoning of unskillful mental qualities and the attainment of skillful mental qualities in the here-&-now. That being the case, it is not proper for you to assert that, "Whatever a person experiences — pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain — all is caused by what was done in the past. Thus, with the destruction of old actions through asceticism, and with the non-doing of new actions, there will be no flow into the future. With no flow into the future, there is the ending of action. With the ending of action, the ending of stress. With the ending of stress, the ending of feeling. With the ending of feeling, all suffering & stress will be exhausted."

"'If, however, you knew that you existed in the past, and that you did not not exist; if you knew that you did evil actions in the past, and that you did not not do them; if you knew that you did such-and-such evil actions in the past; you don't know that so-and-so much stress has been exhausted, or that so-and-so much stress remains to be exhausted, or that with the exhaustion of so-and-so much stress all stress will be exhausted; if you knew what is the abandoning of unskillful mental qualities and the attainment of skillful mental qualities in the here-&-now, then — that being the case — it would be proper for you to assert that, "Whatever a person experiences — pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain — all is caused by what was done in the past. Thus, with the destruction of old actions through asceticism, and with the non-doing of new actions, there will be no flow into the future. With no flow into the future, there is the ending of action. With the ending of action, the ending of stress. With the ending of stress, the ending of feeling. With the ending of feeling, all suffering & stress will be exhausted."

"'Friend Niganthas, it's as if a man were shot with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. As a result of being shot with the arrow, he would feel fierce, sharp, racking pains. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon. The surgeon would cut around the opening of the wound with a knife. As a result of the surgeon's cutting around the opening of the wound with a knife, the man would feel fierce, sharp, racking pains. The surgeon would probe for the arrow with a probe. As a result of the surgeon's probing for the arrow with a probe, the man would feel fierce, sharp, racking pains. The surgeon would then pull out the arrow. As a result of the surgeon's pulling out the arrow, the man would feel fierce, sharp, racking pains. The surgeon would then apply a burning medicine to the mouth of the wound. As a result of the surgeon's applying a burning medicine to the mouth of the wound, the man would feel fierce, sharp, racking pains. But then at a later time, when the wound had healed and was covered with skin, he would be well & happy, free, master of himself, able to go wherever he liked. The thought would occur to him, "Before, I was shot with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. As a result of being shot with the arrow, I felt fierce, sharp, racking pains. My friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives provided me with a surgeon... The surgeon cut around the opening of the wound with a knife... probed for the arrow with a probe... pulled out the arrow... applied a burning medicine to the mouth of the wound. As a result of his applying a burning medicine to the mouth of the wound, I felt fierce, sharp, racking pains. But now that the wound is healed and covered with skin, I am well & happy, free, master of myself, able to go wherever I like."

"'In the same way, friend Niganthas, if you knew that you existed in the past, and that you did not not exist... if you knew what is the abandoning of unskillful mental qualities and the attainment of skillful mental qualities in the here-&-now, then — that being the case — it would be proper for you to assert that, "Whatever a person experiences — pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain — all is caused by what was done in the past. Thus, with the destruction of old actions through asceticism, and with the non-doing of new actions, there will be no flow into the future. With no flow into the future, there is the ending of action. With the ending of action, the ending of stress. With the ending of stress, the ending of feeling. With the ending of feeling, all suffering & stress will be exhausted." But because you do not know that you existed in the past... you do not know what is the abandoning of unskillful mental qualities and the attainment of skillful mental qualities in the here-&-now, then — that being the case — it is not proper for you to assert that, "Whatever a person experiences — pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain — all is caused by what was done in the past. Thus, with the destruction of old actions through asceticism, and with the non-doing of new actions, there will be no flow into the future. With no flow into the future, there is the ending of action. With the ending of action, the ending of stress. With the ending of stress, the ending of feeling. With the ending of feeling, all suffering & stress will be exhausted."
To summarize, the suttas say a) don’t worry about it. Worrying about it will cause you vexation.

Again. The authors of the Abhidamma (Theravadin; or otherwise) worried themselves with the ontological status of the past and (big surprise) this caused schisms within their respective order.

b) it’s not relevant. Ending the fermentations happens in the here and now.

We may be struck with a poison arrow, cut and probed by a surgeon - treated with hot medicine and endure much suffering. That is all in the past.

What matters is the healing in the here and now which gives us freedom and health.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: All Exists

Post by Pondera »

Of course, I have the divine eye which surpasses the human eye. I see things that the naked eye cannot.

Above our bodies is a conduit which we are falling through. Looking up, it twists and winds all the way back to the moment of birth.

Then there is another conduit that leads into the womb. It winds back all the way to even before the moment of conception - back to the race amongst the spermatozoa - when you glance on it, your spirit guide tells you;

“Pick that one. He’s the strongest. He is YOU!!!”

And then you follow it to the womb. You watch as conception unfolds. The embryo forms.

At a certain stage your Spirit Guide announces himself:

“NOW!!! Penetrate the mind of this embryo!”

And you do and you are sent through another conduit. This conduit is the descent of your heavenly body into the consciousness of the embryo.

But when you reach the end of the conduit you are compelled to go down another one to your left. And you see your previous life on his deathbed.

Your Spirit Guide urges you - “reach into that conduit to the moment of birth.”

And you do. And you view the birth of your previous being. You watch him grow up into a man. You see him in his house with his wife and children. Your spirit guide points out how your wife in this life is the present day wife of your brother - that your eldest daughter in that life becomes the eldest daughter of your brother - that your youngest daughter in that life becomes your first true love in your present life.

You see all the wrongs and rights you did in your life. You age. And eventually you die and go to heaven. You watch this whole episode unfold like a movie. After staying a while in heaven you descend into the womb of your present mother. There you develop until you are ready to be born. Then you are born. The doctor hands you to your eldest brother, your second eldest brother, your third eldest brother, your fourth eldest brother, and finally to your mother - where she then holds you to her bosom and rocks you back and forth.

You watch memories from this life unfold. From childhood to adolescence to young adulthood - right up to that very moment where you find your self sitting on the floor cross legged.

The experience has ended. You have had exactly ONE past life recollection.

The Buddha somehow did this over 40,000 eons of universal contraction and expansion.

But. What is the ontological status of the past? If it were simply a memory - a product of consciousness and the mind - it would have no way of transitioning from one life to the next.

The continuity of infinite past life recollections relies entirely on a past which has timed a stamp on the face of existence.

And that is the ontological status of the past. Every moment is recorded like a stamp on the face of existence. As we fall through these conduits, and journey from life to death to heaven to the womb to birth, etcetera - we leave a trail of footprints in the sand. A man with good vision can look back at the impressions left in the sand and recall where he once was in times gone by.

But this, of course, is all conjecture. And conjecture about the Past (as it concerns the fate of the future) leads only to vexation.

🧐
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:17 am
I can generate a reply based on what you've said is the classical Theravādin stance as I've understood you. When the mind focuses on the past, it focuses on a concept, not a dhamma in the truest sense, because concepts aren't dhammas. I don't agree with this, but as far as I've understood, this is something you hold to and identify as "classically" Theravādin.
Concepts are dhammas, but they are not paramattha dhammas since they have no intrinsic-nature. When discussing remembering the past we are discussing a bare mind-door process. Ledi Sayadaw offers some explanation of how this can work without a direct object:
(2) An independent mind-door process occurs when any of the six objects enters the range of cognition entirely on its own, not as a consequence of an immediately preceding sense-door process. The question may be raised how an object can enter the range of the mind door independently of a proximate sensory impingement. Ledi Sayadaw cites various sources: through what was directly perceived earlier, or by inference from what was directly perceived; through what was learnt by oral report, or by inference from what was learnt by oral report; on account of belief, opinion, reasoning, or reflective acceptance of a view; by the power of kamma, psychic power, disturbance of the bodily humours, the influence of a deity, comprehension, realization, etc. He explains that if one has clearly experienced an object even once, at a later time—even after a hundred years or in a future life—dependent on that object a condition may be set for the vibration of the bhavanga. The mind that has been nurtured on such an input of prior experiences is extremely susceptible to their influence. When it encounters any sense object, that object may trigger off in a single moment mental waves extending to many thousands of objects previously perceived.

The mental continuum, constantly being excited by these causal influences, is always seeking an opportunity to emerge from the bhavanga and acquire a clear cognition of an object. Therefore the mental factor of attention present in the bhavanga repeatedly causes the bhavanga to vibrate, and it directs consciousness again and again to advert to objects which have gained conditions to appear. Even though the bhavanga citta has its own object, Ledi Sayadaw explains, it occurs in the mode of inclining towards some other object. As a result of this perpetual “buzz” of activity in the bhavanga, when an object acquires sufficient prominence through other operative conditions, it draws the continuum of consciousness out of the bhavanga, and then that object comes into the range of cognition at the mind door.

The independent process is analyzed as sixfold: the process based on what was directly perceived; the process based on inference from what was directly perceived; the process based on oral report; the process based on inference from oral report; the process based on the cognized; the process based on inference from the cognized. “The cognized” here includes belief, opinion, comprehension, and realization; “inference from the cognized” includes judgements arrived at by inductive and deductive reasoning.
Abhidhammattha-saṅgaha

This seems similar to the Abhidhamma explanation of kamma, in that past experiences leave "traces" in the mind stream. Perhaps a Sautrāntika influence here?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

asahi wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:22 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:49 pm As is well known, but usually not well understood, the Sarvāstivādins of old accepted a theory where the dhammas existed in the 3 times. Past dhammas exist, present dhammas exist and future dhammas exist. The dhammas always exist and cannot be destroyed, yet they exist in a form of mutual conditionality where no conditioned dhamma alone can discharge it's effects throughout time without the aid of the others. Interesting to note is how popular this theory was, since it was also accepted by the Pudgalavādins. The major split being simply regarding the "person" proposed by the latter. This theory of course didn't come out of nowhere. It was developed in order to answer how past actions can bring results in the present and future. The argument goes that if past actions have ceased there is no way for them to have effects today. Past actions must then still exist, and so dhammas exist in the past and future. A further argument put forward by the Vaibhāṣikas relates to cognition. All of us can remember the past. Different forms, feelings and so on. Since consciousness always requires and object in order to cognise, and since said dhammas are in the past then the dhammas must still exist in the past in some form. The past then exists, as does the future, otherwise there could be no cognition of past events. Theravāda obviously rejects this argument, and the Vaibhāṣikas actually refer to Ven. Moggaliputtatissa as someone who proposes "cognition of nothing", meaning awareness of past dhammas without an object (since they have ceased). The Theravādin reply to how kamma functions across time and how we can be aware of past events is the Bhavaṅga. Yogācāra and the Sautrāntikas proposed something similar with their "store-house consciousness" and "seed" theories. My intention of this post was to hear how Suttavādins here address this problem, and what their reply would be to both the Vaibhāṣikas and Theravāda/Yogācāra/Sautrāntikas? It seems to me that these are the only options available to answer the problem, but what do others think?
“Kassapa, if one thinks, ‘The one who acts is the same as the one who experiences the result,’ then one asserts with reference to one existing from the beginning: ‘Suffering is created by oneself.’ When one asserts thus, this amounts to eternalism. But, Kassapa, if one thinks, ‘The one who acts is one, the one who experiences the result is another,’ then one asserts with reference to one stricken by feeling: ‘Suffering is created by another.’ When one asserts thus, this amounts to annihilationism.
I don't see how this is relevant?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:10 am "There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas[1] is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...[2]

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Evidently the abhidhammikas from all of the schools you have called into question did not seem to get the point. The exact workings of kamma are beyond conjecture. Assigning “reality” or “mere concept” to the Past (for the sake of explaining the mechanics of kamma) is not relevant to the cessation of suffering.
The bit in [] has been inserted by the translator. It should read "The results of kamma". This makes it different to the Abhidhammikas enquires into how kamma functions across time.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
asahi
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Re: All Exists

Post by asahi »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:35 pm
asahi wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:22 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:49 pm As is well known, but usually not well understood, the Sarvāstivādins of old accepted a theory where the dhammas existed in the 3 times. Past dhammas exist, present dhammas exist and future dhammas exist. The dhammas always exist and cannot be destroyed, yet they exist in a form of mutual conditionality where no conditioned dhamma alone can discharge it's effects throughout time without the aid of the others. Interesting to note is how popular this theory was, since it was also accepted by the Pudgalavādins. The major split being simply regarding the "person" proposed by the latter. This theory of course didn't come out of nowhere. It was developed in order to answer how past actions can bring results in the present and future. The argument goes that if past actions have ceased there is no way for them to have effects today. Past actions must then still exist, and so dhammas exist in the past and future. A further argument put forward by the Vaibhāṣikas relates to cognition. All of us can remember the past. Different forms, feelings and so on. Since consciousness always requires and object in order to cognise, and since said dhammas are in the past then the dhammas must still exist in the past in some form. The past then exists, as does the future, otherwise there could be no cognition of past events. Theravāda obviously rejects this argument, and the Vaibhāṣikas actually refer to Ven. Moggaliputtatissa as someone who proposes "cognition of nothing", meaning awareness of past dhammas without an object (since they have ceased). The Theravādin reply to how kamma functions across time and how we can be aware of past events is the Bhavaṅga. Yogācāra and the Sautrāntikas proposed something similar with their "store-house consciousness" and "seed" theories. My intention of this post was to hear how Suttavādins here address this problem, and what their reply would be to both the Vaibhāṣikas and Theravāda/Yogācāra/Sautrāntikas? It seems to me that these are the only options available to answer the problem, but what do others think?
“Kassapa, if one thinks, ‘The one who acts is the same as the one who experiences the result,’ then one asserts with reference to one existing from the beginning: ‘Suffering is created by oneself.’ When one asserts thus, this amounts to eternalism. But, Kassapa, if one thinks, ‘The one who acts is one, the one who experiences the result is another,’ then one asserts with reference to one stricken by feeling: ‘Suffering is created by another.’ When one asserts thus, this amounts to annihilationism.
I don't see how this is relevant?
Well , according to sutta , it appears existing in 3 times or not , is siding with eternalist and annihilist . The Buddha didnt adopt such approach imo . The action done in past life by a person and vipaka that present person felt are not to be taken as unchanging . The past exists as a memory form in us that is why one can retrieve it and thats why the past is still exists . Theravadin Bhavanga concept is a misunderstanding and misconception of what underlies in the process of what is happening .
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Re: All Exists

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asahi wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:10 pm
Well , according to sutta , it appears existing in 3 times or not , is siding with eternalist and annihilist . The Buddha didnt adopt such approach imo . The action done in past life by a person and vipaka that present person felt are not to be taken as unchanging . The past exists as a memory form in us that is why one can retrieve it and thats why the past is still exists . Theravadin Bhavanga concept is a misunderstanding and misconception of what underlies in the process of what is happening .
So what is happening? I also don’t see how it’s eternalism or annihilationism?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
asahi
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Re: All Exists

Post by asahi »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:17 pm
asahi wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:10 pm
Well , according to sutta , it appears existing in 3 times or not , is siding with eternalist and annihilist . The Buddha didnt adopt such approach imo . The action done in past life by a person and vipaka that present person felt are not to be taken as unchanging . The past exists as a memory form in us that is why one can retrieve it and thats why the past is still exists . Theravadin Bhavanga concept is a misunderstanding and misconception of what underlies in the process of what is happening .
So what is happening? I also don’t see how it’s eternalism or annihilationism?
If dhammas exists across 3 times cannot be destroyed and that is not a kind of eternalism ? If dhammas can be destroyed is that not a kind of annihilationism ?
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Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

asahi wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:23 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:17 pm
asahi wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:10 pm
Well , according to sutta , it appears existing in 3 times or not , is siding with eternalist and annihilist . The Buddha didnt adopt such approach imo . The action done in past life by a person and vipaka that present person felt are not to be taken as unchanging . The past exists as a memory form in us that is why one can retrieve it and thats why the past is still exists . Theravadin Bhavanga concept is a misunderstanding and misconception of what underlies in the process of what is happening .
So what is happening? I also don’t see how it’s eternalism or annihilationism?
If dhammas exists across 3 times cannot be destroyed and that is not a kind of eternalism ? If dhammas can be destroyed is that not a kind of annihilationism ?
Eternalism and annihilationism refer to an atta. That is they are specific views relating to the concept of atta.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: All Exists

Post by asahi »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:26 pm Eternalism and annihilationism refer to an atta. That is they are specific views relating to the concept of atta.
Thats why Buddha never taught of something such as dhammas exists across 3 times . All teachings has to connect to uprooting the false self . Similar with the bhavanga theory are but to rationalise how the kamma of a person continues to another in next life as though they are the same self .
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

asahi wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:46 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:26 pm Eternalism and annihilationism refer to an atta. That is they are specific views relating to the concept of atta.
Thats why Buddha never taught of something such as dhammas exists across 3 times . All teachings has to connect to uprooting the false self . Similar with the bhavanga theory are but to rationalise how the kamma of a person continues to another in next life as though they are the same self .
The Theravādin and Sarvāstivādin views have nothing to do with a self.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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