All Exists

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

Not all things that are ultimately true have their own arising, abiding, and ceasing. Think of the ultimate truths in Theravāda.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:00 am Not all things that are ultimately true have their own arising, abiding, and ceasing. Think of the ultimate truths in Theravāda.
No but there is only 1 unconditioned dhamma. All ultimate realities can act as a condition and bring about an effect.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

Furthermore, many of the things that are ultimately true in Theravāda are not dependently originated, like dependent origination supposedly according to this conversation we've had. Dependent origination as a principle, you will admit, governs how dhammas behave in sequences. Dependent origination as a principle is unarisen and unceasing. This is why the conditioned mind ceases at parinibbāna according to the Theravādin scholastic tradition. It ceases, because dependent origination itself does not. There is simply no option in that system for what is dependently originated to escape that dependently originated status. It arises and ceases and can't help but do that. Time "exists" in the same way that dependent origination "exists," and corresponds to the relational interactions themselves between "the moments" and between "the dependently originated dharmas." So this circles back to my belief that just as Ābhidharmika sects believe in pratītyasamutpāda, they believe in time as a direct consequence of their division of it into the moments by which they intuit it. It needn't be a discrete concrete "time dhamma" like you alluded to earlier. "The moments" are "time" in that they can't help but by governed by that princple. The moments are the instantiations of the princple of time just as the dependently originated dharmas are the instantiations of dependent origination.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:13 am Furthermore, many of the things that are ultimately true in Theravāda are not dependently originated, like dependent origination supposedly according to this conversation we've had. Dependent origination as a principle, you will admit, governs how dhammas behave in sequences. Dependent origination as a principle is unarisen and unceasing. This is why the conditioned mind ceases at parinibbāna according to the Theravādin scholastic tradition. It ceases, because dependent origination itself does not. There is simply no option in that system for what is dependently originated to escape that reality. It arises and ceases and can't help but do that. Time "exists" in the same way that dependent origination "exists," and corresponds to the relational interactions themselves between "the moments" and between "the dependently originated dharmas." So this circles back to my belief that just as Ābhidharmika sects believe in pratītyasamutpāda, they believe in time as a direct consequence of their division of it into the moments by which they intuit it. It needn't be a discrete concrete "time dhamma" like you alluded to earlier.
We do accept time, as a concept. It’s just not ultimately true. The same with dependent origination. It doesn’t govern the dhammas, which makes it into a thing that does things. Final Nibbana occurs due to removing the conditions for rebirth rather than a thing called dependent origination stoping it. You are right to say that dependent origination neither arises nor ceases.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:21 amIt’s just not ultimately true.
But did you not admit previously to dependent origination being ultimately true despite it not being a particular dhamma?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:37 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:21 amIt’s just not ultimately true.
But did you not admit previously to dependent origination being ultimately true despite it not being a particular dhamma?
I said it was true, not ultimately true.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

So what about the noble truth of the origin of suffering? Is that not ultimately true? If the second noble truth is ultimately true and (anuloma) paṭiccasamuppāda is not ultimately true, how do you differentiate?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Pondera
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Re: All Exists

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:37 pm
Pondera wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:10 am "There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas[1] is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...[2]

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Evidently the abhidhammikas from all of the schools you have called into question did not seem to get the point. The exact workings of kamma are beyond conjecture. Assigning “reality” or “mere concept” to the Past (for the sake of explaining the mechanics of kamma) is not relevant to the cessation of suffering.
The bit in [] has been inserted by the translator. It should read "The results of kamma". This makes it different to the Abhidhammikas enquires into how kamma functions across time.
Here’s a different translation
Numbered Discourses 4
8. Guaranteed
77. Unthinkable
“Mendicants, these four things are unthinkable. They should not be thought about, and anyone who tries to think about them will go mad or get frustrated. What four?
The scope of the Buddhas …
The scope of one in absorption …
The results of deeds …
Speculation about the world …
These are the four unthinkable things. They should not be thought about, and anyone who tries to think about them will go mad or get frustrated.”
“The results of deeds …”

Quite clearly the abhidammikas have not gotten the point. In fact, the following quote is quite ironic.
And tradition has it that those bhikkhus only who know Abhidhamma are true preachers of the Dhamma; the rest, though they speak on the Dhamma, are not preachers thereof. And why? They, in speaking on the Dhamma, confuse the different kinds of Kamma and of its results, the distinction between mind and matter, and the different kinds of states. The students of Abhidhamma do not thus get confused; hence a bhikkhu who knows Abhidhamma, whether he preaches the Dhamma or not, will be able to answer questions whenever asked. He alone, therefore, is a true preacher of the Dhamma.
- The Expositor (Atthasālinī).
So, our self proclaimed “true dhamma speakers” are in fact more qualified to give dhamma talk because they understand kamma result, even though the Buddha has specifically told us not to engage in such conjecture?

Just one more reason why I haven’t any interest in the abhidamma and/or will devote what little time I have to the suttas.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

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Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:58 am So what about the noble truth of the origin of suffering? Is that not ultimately true? If the second noble truth is ultimately true and (anuloma) paṭiccasamuppāda is not ultimately true, how do you differentiate?
Specific instances of craving are ultimately true, but there is no ultimate truth of "The Truth of Craving". There is no abstract "Truth of Suffering", ultimately speaking.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:32 am ...
Once again that relates to not vexing oneself by trying to work out what is the result of kamma, rather than how it works.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:35 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:58 am So what about the noble truth of the origin of suffering? Is that not ultimately true? If the second noble truth is ultimately true and (anuloma) paṭiccasamuppāda is not ultimately true, how do you differentiate?
Specific instances of craving are ultimately true, but there is no ultimate truth of "The Truth of Craving". There is no abstract "Truth of Suffering", ultimately speaking.
So the four noble truths are not ultimately true according to Theravāda? There is only particular instances of suffering, particular dependent originations of suffering, particular cessations of suffering, and particular path-knowledges, and ultimately no ultimate truths of suffering, of the origin, of the cessation, and of the path?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:41 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:35 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:58 am So what about the noble truth of the origin of suffering? Is that not ultimately true? If the second noble truth is ultimately true and (anuloma) paṭiccasamuppāda is not ultimately true, how do you differentiate?
Specific instances of craving are ultimately true, but there is no ultimate truth of "The Truth of Craving". There is no abstract "Truth of Suffering", ultimately speaking.
So the four noble truths are not ultimately true according to Theravāda? There is only particular instances of suffering, particular dependent originations of suffering, particular cessations of suffering, and particular path-knowledges, and ultimately no ultimate truths of suffering, of the origin, of the cessation, and of the path?
The 1st Noble Truth contains many dhammas and sabhāva-dhammas, all of which share the common characteristic of suffering. There is no sabhāva-dhamma of "The Truth of Suffering" or suffering.

The 2nd Noble Truth contains craving. Craving is a sabhāva-dhamma. There is no sabhāva-dhamma of "The Origin of Craving".

The 3rd Noble Truth contains nibbāna. Nibbāna is a sabhāva-dhamma. There is no sabhāva-dhamma of "The Cessation of Suffering".

The 4th Noble Truth contains many different sabhāva-dhammas. There is no sabhāva-dhamma of "The Truth of the Path leading to the Cessation of Suffering"
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

The truths themselves, I take it then, are not ultimately true because they lack discrete sabhāva dhammas that correspond to them in your view?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:15 am The truths themselves, I take it then, are not ultimately true because they lack discrete sabhāva dhammas that correspond to them in your view?
Yes. The Truth of Suffering does not correspond to a sabhāva-dhamma called suffering, but rather to dhammas which share that characteristic. Suffering is a characteristic, not a sabhāva-dhamma.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

I won't lie. I find it curious that you can say "yes" to the four noble truths not being ultimately true. I suppose in the end I just don't share your metric of "possessed of sabhāva = ultimately true," so it makes sense that I might find the conclusion unjustified.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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