All Exists

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:09 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:03 pm They speak of more than that. The area of Abhidharmakośabhāṣya I directed you to speaks of the three times as having their three distinct svabhāvas and corresponding svalakṣaṇas.
Does Vasubandhu accurately represent their position though?
The specific language of the trikāla (three times) each having distinct svabhāvas and svalakṣaṇas comes from Ven Vasubandhu quoting the Tocharian Ven Ghoṣaka's Abhidharmāmṛta, I believe.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Dan74
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Re: All Exists

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Sorry, C. This doesn't gel with my experience, at least what I can make out, since I know only some but not all of the Pali.

Why not actually examine "painful feeling" carefully? Really stick with it? See what you can find?
_/|\_
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

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Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:22 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:09 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:03 pm They speak of more than that. The area of Abhidharmakośabhāṣya I directed you to speaks of the three times as having their three distinct svabhāvas and corresponding svalakṣaṇas.
Does Vasubandhu accurately represent their position though?
The specific language of the trikāla (three times) each having distinct svabhāvas and svalakṣaṇas comes from Ven Vasubandhu quoting the Tocharian Ven Ghoṣaka's Abhidharmāmṛta, I believe.
Interesting. There is more:
[Questioner:] … Thus the Venerable Vasumitra says: ‘The saṃskāra‑s have no coming, nor do they have going; being momentary in nature, they do not stay either.’ Now, since the saṃskāra‑s do not have any characteristics of coming and going, etc., how is the differentiation of the three adhvanaḥ to be established?

Answer: The differentiation of the three adhvanaḥ is established in terms of kāritra. It is on this very basis that they are said to have migration: That is, when a saṃskṛta-dharma has not yet exercised its kāritra, it is said to be future; when it is exercising its kāritra, it is said to be present; when its kāritra has ceased, it is said to be past. …
Abhidharma Mahāvibhāṣa Śāstra
When the Sarvāstivāda asserts that the three periods of time exist (asti), what it actually means is that “dharma‑s” in the three periods of time exist. For the Sarvāstivāda, time is none other than the activity of dharma‑s, and temporality is superimposed by us on these activities. This is in fact the general Buddhist tradition since the Buddha’s time. The MVŚ, however, records an exceptional view, said to be held by the “Dārṣṭāntika-Vibhajyavādins”, that impermanent dharma‑s course in permanent time:

"The “Dārṣṭāntika-Vibhajyavādins” (譬喻者分別論師) maintain that time (adhvan) and the conditioning forces (saṃskāra) are distinct entities. Time is a permanent entity; the conditioning forces are impermanent entities.2 When the conditioning forces are coursing in time, they are like the fruits in a vessel, coming out from this vessel and turning into that vessel. … Likewise the conditioning forces: they enter into the present time from the future time, and enter into the past time from the present time. To repudiate the “Dārṣṭāntika-Vibhajyavādins” proposition, it is shown [here] that time and the conditioning forces are not different in intrinsic nature."
Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

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Dan74 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:23 pm Sorry, C. This doesn't gel with my experience, at least what I can make out, since I know only some but not all of the Pali.

Why not actually examine "painful feeling" carefully? Really stick with it? See what you can find?
I prefer to stick with the suttas, Aṭṭhakathā and Abhidhamma. Your position also makes no sense. When I burn my hand the excruciating pain is not a mere concept.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:29 pmWhen I burn my hand the excruciating pain is not a mere concept.
Is the fact that the pain occurred after the burn and not before it a mere conceptual overlay retroactively applied?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Dan74
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Re: All Exists

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:29 pm
Dan74 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:23 pm Sorry, C. This doesn't gel with my experience, at least what I can make out, since I know only some but not all of the Pali.

Why not actually examine "painful feeling" carefully? Really stick with it? See what you can find?
I prefer to stick with the suttas, Aṭṭhakathā and Abhidhamma. Your position also makes no sense. When I burn my hand the excruciating pain is not a mere concept.
The suttas are interpreted through our deluded minds. The Buddha also likened what we take as pleasure to lepers cauterising their sores. So beware of immediate interpretations.

Another thing is physical pain is only a tiny fraction of pain we experience. And even that can be taken quite differently. See Ven Quan Duc, for example.
_/|\_
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

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Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:32 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:29 pmWhen I burn my hand the excruciating pain is not a mere concept.
Is the fact that the pain occurred after the burn and not before it a mere conceptual overlay retroactively applied?
No, since the raw sensation exists apart from concept. Dependent upon the contact there is pain and the concept of "pain".
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Dan74 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:33 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:29 pm
Dan74 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:23 pm Sorry, C. This doesn't gel with my experience, at least what I can make out, since I know only some but not all of the Pali.

Why not actually examine "painful feeling" carefully? Really stick with it? See what you can find?
I prefer to stick with the suttas, Aṭṭhakathā and Abhidhamma. Your position also makes no sense. When I burn my hand the excruciating pain is not a mere concept.
The suttas are interpreted through our deluded minds. The Buddha also likened what we take as pleasure to lepers cauterising their sores. So beware of immediate interpretations.

Another thing is physical pain is only a tiny fraction of pain we experience. And even that can be taken quite differently. See Ven Quan Duc, for example.
This is why I also seek the advice of the Ābhidhammikas. I agree that pain isn't the only reality. It was simply an example.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Dan74
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Re: All Exists

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:35 pm
Dan74 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:33 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:29 pm

I prefer to stick with the suttas, Aṭṭhakathā and Abhidhamma. Your position also makes no sense. When I burn my hand the excruciating pain is not a mere concept.
The suttas are interpreted through our deluded minds. The Buddha also likened what we take as pleasure to lepers cauterising their sores. So beware of immediate interpretations.

Another thing is physical pain is only a tiny fraction of pain we experience. And even that can be taken quite differently. See Ven Quan Duc, for example.
This is why I also seek the advice of the Ābhidhammikas. I agree that pain isn't the only reality. It was simply an example.
Why not explore the greatest teacher you have, your experience here and now?
_/|\_
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

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Dan74 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:37 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:35 pm
Dan74 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:33 pm

The suttas are interpreted through our deluded minds. The Buddha also likened what we take as pleasure to lepers cauterising their sores. So beware of immediate interpretations.

Another thing is physical pain is only a tiny fraction of pain we experience. And even that can be taken quite differently. See Ven Quan Duc, for example.
This is why I also seek the advice of the Ābhidhammikas. I agree that pain isn't the only reality. It was simply an example.
Why not explore the greatest teacher you have, your experience here and now?
Because as you say, we are deluded. People who rely solely upon their experience end up like our members Zenny or SteRo.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Dan74
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Re: All Exists

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:38 pm
Dan74 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:37 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:35 pm

This is why I also seek the advice of the Ābhidhammikas. I agree that pain isn't the only reality. It was simply an example.
Why not explore the greatest teacher you have, your experience here and now?
Because as you say, we are deluded. People who rely solely upon their experience end up like our member Zenny or SteRo.
Not solely. We need teachers. Guides. Suttas. But without paying attention to the experience (not to say draw conclusions from it), what does any of this mean?
_/|\_
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

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Dan74 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:40 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:38 pm
Dan74 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:37 pm

Why not explore the greatest teacher you have, your experience here and now?
Because as you say, we are deluded. People who rely solely upon their experience end up like our member Zenny or SteRo.
Not solely. We need teachers. Guides. Suttas. But without paying attention to the experience (not to say draw conclusions from it), what does any of this mean?
I agree, which is why I seek the advice and instruction of the aforementioned authorities. You seem to assume that I do not practice the gradual path or meditate.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:34 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:32 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:29 pmWhen I burn my hand the excruciating pain is not a mere concept.
Is the fact that the pain occurred after the burn and not before it a mere conceptual overlay retroactively applied?
No, since the raw sensation exists apart from concept.
So that the pain occurs after the burn and not before it is ultimate reality, or "true from the perspective of ultimate reality" perhaps. When sensation occurs, it happens after its cause, not before it and not unrelated to it. I take it you agree?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Dan74
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Re: All Exists

Post by Dan74 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:41 pm
Dan74 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:40 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:38 pm

Because as you say, we are deluded. People who rely solely upon their experience end up like our member Zenny or SteRo.
Not solely. We need teachers. Guides. Suttas. But without paying attention to the experience (not to say draw conclusions from it), what does any of this mean?
I agree, which is why I seek the advice of the aforementioned authorities. You seem to assume that I do not practice the gradual path or meditate.
I don't know. You seem to post a lot of theoretical questions, which I confess does suggest to me that you don't practice enough.

I may be a different personality, but when my practice is strong, I don't ask too many things.
_/|\_
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:42 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:34 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:32 pm Is the fact that the pain occurred after the burn and not before it a mere conceptual overlay retroactively applied?
No, since the raw sensation exists apart from concept.
So that the pain occurs after the burn and not before it is ultimate reality, or "true from the perspective of ultimate reality." When sensation occurs, it happens after its cause, not before it and not unrelated to it. I take it you agree?
I would have to look at the specifics of the conditional process involved in the Paṭṭhāna but in very simple terms the contact is the condition for the arising of the sabhāva-dhamma of "pain" which lasts for a moment.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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