All Exists

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

If time is not "a thing in itself" to you based on those criteria, then I would put to you that pratītyasamutpāda is similarly not "a thing in itself" based on those same criteria. Now, does this mean that pratītyasamutpāda doesn't exist? Is pratītyasamutpāda a concept that is synthesized retroactively after having observed the relationships that the pratītyasamutpanna dharmas have with each other?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22391
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:50 pm If time is not "a thing in itself" to you based on those criteria, then I would put to you that pratītyasamutpāda is similarly not "a thing in itself" based on those same criteria. Now, does this mean that pratītyasamutpāda doesn't exist? Is pratītyasamutpāda a concept that is synthesized retroactively after having observed the relationships that the pratītyasamutpanna dharmas have with each other?
It isn’t a thing in itself.
Attachments
2401A88A-2F61-4951-ACDE-F165B59FE2F1.jpeg
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

So does it now follow that because it isn't a "thing in itself" that it is a concept that is synthesized retroactively after having observed the relationships that the pratītyasamutpanna dharmas have with each other?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22391
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:02 am So does it now follow that because it isn't a "thing in itself" that it is a concept that is synthesized retroactively after having observed the relationships that the pratītyasamutpanna dharmas have with each other?
Dependent origination is a concept. There is no reality of “dependent origination” behind it. It’s superimposed based on the conditionality of the dhammas. There being ignorance there are formations, and from this we synthesise the concept “dependent origination”.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

Is pratītyasamutpāda true, given the above?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22391
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:07 am Is pratītyasamutpāda true, given the above?
Yes.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

Well, I would put forward that "time" is true in the same way, despite being synthesized from observing the relations of the past and present and that the present changes. Because it is "true," I can also say "there is this," like when we say "there is this principle of dependent origination." In contrast, there is not "this principle of the transmigrating ātman," despite the princple of the ātman's transmigration being synthesized and conceptual, like pratītyasamutpāda according to how we just defined it in the post above and to what you just agreed to as I understand.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22391
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:17 am Well, I would put forward that "time" is true in the same way, despite being synthesized from observing the relations of the past and present and that the present changes. Because it is "true," I can also say "there is this," like when we say "there is this principle of dependent origination." In contrast, there is not "this principle of the transmigrating ātman," despite the princple of the ātman's transmigration being synthesized and conceptual, like pratītyasamutpāda according to how we just defined it in the post above and to what you just agreed to as I understand.
I would also say that time is true. That it’s true when we speak of past, present or future dhammas. If I say i met you at sunrise that is true, even though ultimately the sun doesn’t really rise. Conventionally it’s true that you and I will be reborn.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

There's a conundrum now. These things, time and pratītyasamutpāda, that supposedly don't exist are true.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22391
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:27 am There's a conundrum now. These things, time and pratītyasamutpāda, that supposedly don't exist are true.
It’s not a conundrum. They are conventional truths. When the Buddha said “I am in Sāvatthī” that was conventionally true.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22391
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Some interesting thoughts on that by Y. Karunadasa.
Attachments
A4CFD8E4-D2D0-45B2-91CB-A796C67CCA8F.jpeg
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

From a Theravāda POV there is another way to look at it unless I've misunderstood you. From the perspective of ultimate reality, form and consciousness etc. were in a location relative to other form when he said “I am in Sāvatthī." That form etc. was not located in some other place it had been in in the past. Instead, when "I am in" was said, the form etc. was by the form that constitutes the objects that make up the city of Sāvatthī when perceived. So we see that time actually applies to so-called "ultimate objects" too, and thus is also an "ultimate truth" if we take this thesis that things arise, abide, and cease to its conclusions. To now we've an ultimate truth that doesn't exist.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22391
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:40 am From a Theravāda POV there is another way to look at it unless I've misunderstood you. From the perspective of ultimate reality, form and consciousness etc. were in a location relative to other form when he said “I am in Sāvatthī." That form etc. was not located in some other place it had been in in the past. Instead, when "I am in" was said, the form etc. was by the form that constitutes the objects that make up the city of Sāvatthī when perceived. So we see that time actually applies to so-called "ultimate objects" too, and thus is also an "ultimate truth" is we take this thesis that things arise, abide, and cease to its conclusions. To now we've an ultimate truth that doesn't exist.
Well time does apply in the sense of the mind imposing the concept upon those dhammas, at the level of conventional truth only. We can’t say that time is ultimately true because if it were it would have it’s own arising, abiding and ceasing.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

What if that wasn't the metric to determine if something is ultimately true or not?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22391
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:48 am What if that wasn't the metric to determine if something is ultimately true or not?
According to the suttas, commentary and various Abhidhammas it is.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Post Reply