Adukkhaasukkha as “Neutral”?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Pondera
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Adukkhaasukkha as “Neutral”?

Post by Pondera »

IMHO the adukkhaasukkha of the fourth jhana should be more sublime a feeling than any of the rapture or bliss of the earlier jhanas.

However, it is widely translated as “neutral”.

For me, “neutral” is room temperature. Neither too hot, nor too cold.

I fail to see how the translation “neutral” captures the transcendence of the pertinent attainment in the fourth jhana.

A famous instance with Sariputta is where he declares Nirodha Samapatti to be “pleasant precisely because nothing is felt”.

This instance of experience goes beyond pain and pleasure - exemplifying the essence of Unbinding and the supreme happiness felt therein.

I personally prefer when the term “adukkhaasukkha” is left as “neither pain nor pleasure”. I fundamentally disagree with the convention of translating it “neutral”.

Any opinions?
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SarathW
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Re: Adukkhaasukkha as “Neutral”?

Post by SarathW »

I think ' nothing is felt" refers to Nibbana.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Adukkhaasukkha
Neither pain nor pleasure seems oK to me.
However, the fourth Jhana refers to as Upekkha?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: Adukkhaasukkha as “Neutral”?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:52 am However, the fourth Jhana refers to as Upekkha
the 4th jhana is:
With the giving up of pleasure and pain, and the ending of former happiness and sadness, I entered and remained in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness.

Sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṁ atthaṅgamā adukkhamasukhaupekkhāsatipārisuddhiṁ catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja vihāsiṁ.

https://suttacentral.net/mn4/en/sujato
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DooDoot
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Re: Adukkhaasukkha as “Neutral”?

Post by DooDoot »

Pondera wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:16 amHowever, it is widely translated as “neutral”.
Hi Pondera. I have never read a translation of the 4th jhana including "neutral". Generally, the translation of "neutral" is found in relation to feelings arising from contact, such as:
Monks, when one does not accurately know and see the eye, visible objects, eye-consciousness, eye-contact, and whatever feeling arises from eye-contact – whether pleasant, painful, or neutral – then one becomes infatuated with the eye, with visible objects, with eye-consciousness, with eye-contact, and with whatever feeling arises from eye-contact – whether pleasant, painful, or neutral.

https://suttacentral.net/mn149/en/sujato
:candle:
Pondera wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:16 amA famous instance with Sariputta is where he declares Nirodha Samapatti to be “pleasant precisely because nothing is felt”.

This instance of experience goes beyond pain and pleasure - exemplifying the essence of Unbinding and the supreme happiness felt therein.
Adukkhaasukkha appears to have no inherent relationship to Nibbana, for example, as follows:
When you experience a neutral feeling, if you don’t truly understand that feeling’s origin, ending, gratification, drawback, and escape,

Adukkhamasukhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno tassā vedanāya samudayañca atthaṅgamañca assādañca ādīnavañca nissaraṇañca yathābhūtaṁ nappajānāti.

the underlying tendency to ignorance underlies that.

Tassa avijjānusayo anuseti.

Mendicants, without giving up the underlying tendency to greed for pleasant feeling, without dispelling the underlying tendency to repulsion towards painful feeling, without eradicating ignorance in the case of neutral feeling, without giving up ignorance and without giving rise to knowledge, it’s simply impossible to make an end of suffering in the present life.

So vata, bhikkhave, sukhāya vedanāya rāgānusayaṁ appahāya dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighānusayaṁ appaṭivinodetvā adukkhamasukhāya vedanāya avijjānusayaṁ asamūhanitvā avijjaṁ appahāya vijjaṁ anuppādetvā diṭṭheva dhamme dukkhassantakaro bhavissatīti—netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
The above said, i agree adukkhamasukhāya should not be translated as "neutral" because there are feelings that give rise to confusion which obviously cannot be classed as "neutral". :)
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