Cessation of existence is not necessarily nibbana

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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starter
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Cessation of existence is not necessarily nibbana

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"Cessation of existence is nibbana" (‘bhavanirodho nibbānan’) is found in SN 12.68, its parallel SA 351, and AN 10.7. To my understanding, when arahants obtain Nibbana there is cessation of bhava for them; but for non-arahants who wander in Samsara bhava will eventually cease when they haven't obtained nibbana.

MN 49:
‘Having seen fear in being
And [having seen] that being will cease to be,
I did not welcome any kind of being,
Nor did I cling to delight.’

‘Bhavevāhaṁ bhayaṁ disvā,
bhavañca vibhavesinaṁ;
Bhavaṁ nābhivadiṁ kiñci,
nandiñca na upādiyin’ti.

Cessation of existence is not necessarily nibbana. I do not believe Ven. Sariputta would have uttered ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna’ as found in AN 10.7.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Cessation of existence is not necessarily nibbana

Post by Coëmgenu »

The cessation of bhava in MN 47 I believe refers to a particular bhava, namely the bhava that the person spoken of by the Buddha in the gāthā is enjoying at the rhetorical moment. We can presume that the Buddha is speaking about when he was a worldling first setting out in the holy life. Here bhava refers to "a life," here meaning "a particular existence." The cessation of bhava that Ven Śāriputra talked about in AN 10.7 is a noble cessation of bhava in general, there meaning "existence in general." Your life is your existence. Your future life is your future existence. All this is, of course, conventional speech, as there is no "you."
"...and so concludes the exposition of the originated," spake Thomas the Bodhi Wizard. Then, he summarized in a verse:

"I tell you as I told my darling Auntie Wanda,
'It's all a ball of wibbly-wobbly Dharma-Wharma.'"

They rejoiced and lauded.

(Dharmatā verse from the Sūtra of Dubious Import)
pegembara
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Re: Cessation of existence is not necessarily nibbana

Post by pegembara »

Agree. Cessation of existence is annihilationism.
Nibbana is the realization of non-existence or the deathless.
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]"
Heedfulness is the Deathless path,
heedlessness, the path to death.
Those who are heedful do not die,
heedless are like the dead.
“Our true nature is the nature of no birth and no death. Only when we touch our true nature can we transcend the fear of non-being, the fear of annihilation. An American friend, whose name is Elly Kleinman, said to me "Nothing is born, nothing dies." Although he did not practice as a Buddhist but as a company owner, he found the same truth the Buddha discovered.”
― Thích Nhất Hạnh, No Death, No Fear
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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DooDoot
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Re: Cessation of existence is not necessarily nibbana

Post by DooDoot »

starter wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:02 pm"Cessation of existence is nibbana"
I suggest the translation of "bhava" as "existence" is problematic and best avoided. It is a generally a translation used by reincarnationists. The old timers use the translation of "becoming", which describes the reality of "bhava" as a creative mental process & asava (fermentation).
starter wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:02 pm I do not believe Ven. Sariputta would have uttered ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna’ as found in AN 10.7.
There are at least two types of cessation (nirodha) in the suttas, namely:

1. Temporary nirodha

2. Permanent nirodha with nothing left over (asesavirāganirodhā).

For example, "bhava" ("becoming") is included in the 2nd noble truth of the 1st sermon. When Ven. Kondanna realised with the dhamma eye all of the craving, attachment, becoming & dukkha that subject to arising is also subject to cessation, Ven. Kondanna attained stream-entry. Therefore, as a stream-enterer, Ven. Kondanna experienced the cessation of bhava but not the remaindless cessation of bhava.

It follows in AN 10.7 the Ven. Sariputta must be referring to asesavirāganirodhā. Kind regards :smile:
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auto
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Re: Cessation of existence is not necessarily nibbana

Post by auto »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:59 am
starter wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:02 pm"Cessation of existence is nibbana"
I suggest the translation of "bhava" as "existence" is problematic and best avoided. It is a generally a translation used by reincarnationists. The old timers use the translation of "becoming", which describes the reality of "bhava" as a creative mental process & asava (fermentation).
I think you have said something that it is the ego what is reborn in one life model, but these theories doesn't touch further than the feelings.

This sutta seemingly supports your view of rebirth is about going from one room to another. Except, the lodgers are returning(after having done what they have done) and it doesn't mean rebirth but namarupa.
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.14/en/sujato wrote:“Mendicants, suppose there was a guest house. Lodgers come from the east, west, north, and south. Aristocrats, brahmins, merchants, and workers all stay there.
“Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, āgantukāgāraṁ. Tattha puratthimāyapi disāya āgantvā vāsaṁ kappenti, pacchimāyapi disāya āgantvā vāsaṁ kappenti, uttarāyapi disāya āgantvā vāsaṁ kappenti, dakkhiṇāyapi disāya āgantvā vāsaṁ kappenti. Khattiyāpi āgantvā vāsaṁ kappenti, brāhmaṇāpi āgantvā vāsaṁ kappenti, vessāpi āgantvā vāsaṁ kappenti, suddāpi āgantvā vāsaṁ kappenti.
Feelings are the experiences of the result of rebirth-linking consciousness, notice these feelings arise in the body not outside.
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.14/en/sujato wrote:In the same way, various feelings arise in this body: pleasant, painful, and neutral feelings.
Evameva kho, bhikkhave, imasmiṁ kāyasmiṁ vividhā vedanā uppajjanti. Sukhāpi vedanā uppajjati, dukkhāpi vedanā uppajjati, adukkhamasukhāpi vedanā uppajjati.
this is possible a nice example of how there are no arupa mentioned, since the dimension where eye and form are ceasing the requirement is that you wouldn't stimulate the senses - no lodging to return to.
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.14/en/sujato wrote:Also material pleasant, painful, and neutral feelings arise.
Sāmisāpi sukhā vedanā uppajjati, sāmisāpi dukkhā vedanā uppajjati, sāmisāpi adukkhamasukhā vedanā uppajjati.
Also spiritual pleasant, painful, and neutral feelings arise.”
Nirāmisāpi sukhā vedanā uppajjati, nirāmisāpi dukkhā vedanā uppajjati, nirāmisāpi adukkhamasukhā vedanā uppajjatī”ti.
salayatana ceases when namarupa have ceased
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.117/en/sujato wrote:So in your own way you should practice diligence, mindfulness, and protecting the mind regarding the five kinds of sensual stimulation that I formerly experienced—which have passed, ceased, and perished.
Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, tumhākampi ye te pañca kāmaguṇā cetaso samphuṭṭhapubbā atītā niruddhā vipariṇatā, tatra vo attarūpehi appamādo sati cetaso ārakkho karaṇīyo.
So you should understand that dimension where the eye ceases and perception of sights fades away.
Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, se āyatane veditabbe yattha cakkhu ca nirujjhati, rūpasaññā ca nirujjhati, se āyatane veditabbe …pe…
..
The Buddha was referring to the cessation of the six sense fields when he said:
Saḷāyatananirodhaṁ no etaṁ, āvuso, bhagavatā sandhāya bhāsitaṁ:
there is also this "little"(modicum of stress[mn121]) which i think when salayatana is ceasing there still is little bit of contact and feelings.
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.117/en/sujato wrote:So, mendicants, your minds might also often stray towards the five kinds of sensual stimulation that you formerly experienced—which have passed, ceased, and perished—or to those in the present, or in the future a little.
Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, tumhākampi ye te pañca kāmaguṇā cetaso samphuṭṭhapubbā atītā niruddhā vipariṇatā, tatra vo cittaṁ bahulaṁ gacchamānaṁ gaccheyya paccuppannesu vā appaṁ vā anāgatesu.
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DooDoot
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Re: Cessation of existence is not necessarily nibbana

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auto wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:35 pm I think you have said something that it is the ego what is reborn in one life model, but these theories doesn't touch further than the feelings.
Bhava is sankhara khandha (mental formations) and not "feelings" ("vedana khandha"). Possibly try to be more accurate before reply to my posts. Thanks :thanks:

:focus:
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pegembara
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Re: Cessation of existence is not necessarily nibbana

Post by pegembara »

As the worldly person vacillates between bhava, self-continuity, and
vibhava, self-discontinuity, which are themselves unsatisfactory, dukkha,
the Buddha teaches bhava-nirodha, cessation of self-continuity. As we
will come to know in the course of this discussion, bhava-nirodha,
cessation of self-continuity, encompasses vibhava-nirodha, cessation of
self-discontinuity, as well. Once the notion of bhava, self-continuity, is no
more, the notion of vibhava, self-discontinuity, is no longer a necessity.
There is no need for one who has ceased bhava, self-continuity, to go for
the other option, which is vibhava, self-discontinuity. Further, the Buddha
sees bhava, self-continuity, and vibhava, self-discontinuity, to be mutually
exclusive only in the superficial domain. In reality both are founded on
the same notion of self.

Bhava_and_Vibhava_in_Early_Buddhism.pdf
(221.35 KiB) Downloaded 10 times
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Cessation of existence is not necessarily nibbana

Post by auto »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:12 am
auto wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:35 pm I think you have said something that it is the ego what is reborn in one life model, but these theories doesn't touch further than the feelings.
Bhava is sankhara khandha (mental formations) and not "feelings" ("vedana khandha"). Possibly try to be more accurate before reply to my posts. Thanks :thanks:

:focus:
Theories about ego reborning doesn't go further than the feelings. Musings about 'I' is reborning every now and then are theories based on feelings what arise(uppajjati) in sensual realm(bhāva) and form realm(bhāva). Happiness what arises based on good feelings is sankhara. I think it is you here who uses term bhāva incorrectly, equating it with the happiness or sadness.
Another aspect of my post were that these theories doesn't include the dimension where the salayatana(eye and form) is ceasing.
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Re: Cessation of existence is not necessarily nibbana

Post by auto »

State without an existence belongs to the future, where all states of existence ceases.
https://suttacentral.net/iti44/en/sujato wrote: “These two facets of quenching have been made clear
“Duve imā cakkhumatā pakāsitā,
by the seer, the unattached, the poised.
Nibbānadhātū anissitena tādinā;
One facet pertains to the present life—
Ekā hi dhātu idha diṭṭhadhammikā,
what is left over when the conduit to rebirth has ended.
Saupādisesā bhavanettisaṅkhayā;
What has nothing left over pertains to what follows this life,
Anupādisesā pana samparāyikā,
where all states of existence cease.
Yamhi nirujjhanti bhavāni sabbaso.
same but different translation,
found on abhidhamma by naranda mt p358 wrote: “These two Nibbàna-states are shown by Him
Who seeth, who is such and unattached.
One state is that in this same life possessed
With base remaining, tho’ becoming’s stream
Be cut off. While the state without a base
Belongeth to the future, wherein all
Becomings utterly do come to cease.”
Itivuttaka, p. 38.
Woodward — As it was said, p. 143.
(See The Buddha and His Teachings)
In my opinion it speaks of this same dimension where salayatana ceases, the condition there is that the namarupa have ceased. The future "little" refers to the future namarupa but it won't arise, hence it is a state(dimension) without an existence.
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.117/en/sujato wrote:So, mendicants, your minds might also often stray towards the five kinds of sensual stimulation that you formerly experienced—which have passed, ceased, and perished—or to those in the present, or in the future a little.
Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, tumhākampi ye te pañca kāmaguṇā cetaso samphuṭṭhapubbā atītā niruddhā vipariṇatā, tatra vo cittaṁ bahulaṁ gacchamānaṁ gaccheyya paccuppannesu vā appaṁ vā anāgatesu.
So in your own way you should practice diligence, mindfulness, and protecting the mind regarding the five kinds of sensual stimulation that I formerly experienced—which have passed, ceased, and perished.
Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, tumhākampi ye te pañca kāmaguṇā cetaso samphuṭṭhapubbā atītā niruddhā vipariṇatā, tatra vo attarūpehi appamādo sati cetaso ārakkho karaṇīyo.

So you should understand that dimension where the eye ceases and perception of sights fades away.
Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, se āyatane veditabbe yattha cakkhu ca nirujjhati, rūpasaññā ca nirujjhati, se āyatane veditabbe …pe…
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Re: Cessation of existence is not necessarily nibbana

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auto wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 2:02 pm Theories about ego reborning doesn't go further than the feelings.
Ego becoming is a sankhara and not a feeling.
But they regard feeling as self …

But that regarding is just a saṅkhāro

SN 22.81
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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pegembara
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Re: Cessation of existence is not necessarily nibbana

Post by pegembara »

All this talk and speculation about what happens after "death" arises because of bhava tanha. That there is "something" that continues on from one moment to the next.
“Overcome by two viewpoints, some human & divine beings
adhere, other human & divine beings slip right past, while those with
vision see.

“And how do some adhere? Human & divine beings delight in
becoming, enjoy becoming, are satisfied with becoming. When the
Dhamma is being taught for the sake of the cessation of becoming, their
minds do not take to it, are not calmed by it, do not settle on it, or become
resolved on it. This is how some adhere.

“And how do some slip right past? Some, feeling horrified, humiliated,
& disgusted with that very becoming, delight in non-becoming: ‘When
this self, at the break-up of the body, after death, perishes & is destroyed
,
and does not exist after death, that is peaceful, that is exquisite, that is
sufficiency!’ This is how some slip right past.

“And how do those with vision see? There is the case where a monk
sees what’s come to be as what’s come to be. Seeing this, he practices for
disenchantment with what’s come to be, dispassion for what’s come to be,
and the cessation of what’s come to be. This is how those with vision see

People wake up with their minds at peace until bhava tanha takes over.
In an exclusive interview in Kuala Lumpur, the retired former chief hangman, 61, said the executions always begin at dawn, just after the morning prayers.

'That is the best time,' said the officer, who asked his name not to be published for safety reasons. 'People wake up, their mind is always at peace.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... death.html
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auto
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Re: Cessation of existence is not necessarily nibbana

Post by auto »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:32 pm
auto wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 2:02 pm Theories about ego reborning doesn't go further than the feelings.
Ego becoming is a sankhara and not a feeling.
But they regard feeling as self …

But that regarding is just a saṅkhāro

SN 22.81
I meant the theories are what doesn't go further than the feelings. It seem you have troubles with identifying the subject in a sentence? i wonder how did you passed grammar in school?
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