Mahāsāṃghika Four Great References

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Ceisiwr
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Mahāsāṃghika Four Great References

Post by Ceisiwr »

Can anyone who is skilled in Chinese let me know what this part of the sutra says?

爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「今有四大廣演之 義。云何為四?所謂契經、律、阿毘曇、戒,是謂 為四。比丘當知,若有比丘從東方來,誦 經、持法,奉行禁戒,彼便作是語:『我能誦經、 持法,奉行禁戒,博學多聞。』正使彼比丘有 所說者,不應承受,不足篤信,當取彼比 丘而共論議,案法共論。

https://suttacentral.net/ea28.5/lzh/taisho

Thank you.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Four Great References

Post by Coëmgenu »

It's tricky. I blame EA on being named after a mediocre video game studio.

爾時,世尊告諸比丘:
At that time, the Bhagavān said to the many monks:

今有 Now these are
四 the four
大廣演之 great references' [之 is a genitivity marker here]
義 meanings.

云何 In what way
為 are they regarded as
四 four?
契經 The sūtras,
律 the Vinaya,
阿毘曇 the Abhidharma,
戒 and the Pratimokṣa (?) (or the "śīla?"),
是謂為四 these are called the four.

比丘 Bhikṣus,
當知 it should be understood that
若有 if there is
比丘 a bhikṣu
從 from
東方 the eastern direction
來 coming,
誦經 chanting sūtras,
持法 upholding the Dharma,
奉行禁戒 practicing the Pratimokṣa (or the śīla?),
彼便 even if
作是 in this manner
語 he speaks:
我 "I
能誦經 can chant the sūtras
持法 uphold the Dharma,
奉行禁戒 and (can) practice the Pratimokṣa (or the śīla?),
博學 and am widely learned,
多聞 having learned much."

正 Truly,
使 supposing
彼 that
比丘 bhikṣu
有所說者 is one of those who say so (? this section is tricky),
不應承受 you shouldn't support it,
不足篤信 you shouldn't believe sincerely in him.
當 You should
取 fetch
彼 that
比丘 bhikṣu
而 and
共 share
論議 questions and answers.
案法 According to the Dharma
共 together
論 you will discuss.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Four Great References

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:20 pm
...
That's great. Thank you, again. Interesting that the Mahāsāṃghika included the Abhidhamma as being one of the 4 references.
It's tricky. I blame EA on being named after a mediocre video game studio.
:jumping:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Four Great References

Post by Coëmgenu »

The term appears in transliteration, leading me to think it's a proper noun. Ven Analayo on pages 71-72, particularly in footnote 57, in Dawn of Abhidharma discusses the theory that "Abhidharma" means "concerning the Dharma" in early usage. This usage is possible here, but why transliterate it and then say 案法, "according to the Dharma?" Likely it was recognized as a proper noun by the Chinese translators.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Four Great References

Post by Coëmgenu »

If "Abhidharma" is being read how Ven Analayo suggests it was used by early Buddhists, then this becomes possible:

云何 In what way
為 are they regarded as
四 four?
契經 The Sūtras,
律 Vinaya,
阿毘曇 Abhidharma,
戒 and Abhivinaya,
是謂為四 these are called the four.

But I must stress that this is far less likely than the first rendering. It would be bizarre to transliterate "Abhidharma" and not "Abhivinaya."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Four Great References

Post by Coëmgenu »

Something else of note, since I know that you and a few other users here use DeepL to translate āgamasūtras: remove the incorrectly formatted spaces. CBETA, the online Taishо̄ Tripiṭaka, has good digitization, but not too good. In the OP example, I've highlighted the wrong spaces with "@" signs.

爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「今有四大廣演之@ 義。云何為四?所謂契經、律、阿毘曇、戒,是謂 @為四。比丘當知,若有比丘從東方來,誦 @經、持法,奉行禁戒,彼便作是語:『我能誦經、 持法,奉行禁戒,博學多聞。』正使彼比丘有 @所說者,不應承受,不足篤信,當取彼比 @丘而共論議,案法共論。

These extra spaces confuse DeepL. If you don't believe me, delete them in the software, and watch the rendered translation change in real-time.

DeepL is very good, but it makes bizarre mistakes. It thinks 阿毘曇 here is "vipassanā." I once saw it render the "four bases of mindfulness" as the "four noble truths." It is very good, but clearly tries to guess at context too much in too strange an AI manner.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ronnymarsh
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Four Great References

Post by ronnymarsh »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:30 pm That's great. Thank you, again. Interesting that the Mahāsāṃghika included the Abhidhamma as being one of the 4 references.
The Ekkotara Agama of the Chinese canon does not come from the background Mahasanghikas, but from the Dharmaguptakas.
[Chinese agamas come from the Sarvastivadins (Madhyama Agama and Samyukta Agama, or from the Dharmaguptakas (Dirgha Agama, Ekottara Agama and Ksudraka Agama).

And Abhidharma is something common to all Buddhist schools, but the contents of this basket are always different. The sarvastivadins had as Abidharma other texts than the Theravadins, such as the Abidharmakosha (which is the basis of the Japanese school Kusha-shu).

What exactly distinguished each of the schools of classical Buddhism was mainly the Abidharmapitaka, which are the considerations and interpretations of the Sutras (Nikayas or Agamas).

The Mahasanghikas, in turn, as a way of authorizing and elevating their abidharmic positions, transformed their texts into Sutras (which is now the Mahayana canon).
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Four Great References

Post by Ceisiwr »

ronnymarsh wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:14 am
The Ekkotara Agama of the Chinese canon does not come from the background Mahasanghikas, but from the Dharmaguptakas.
Based on the evidence, it’s likely from them.
And Abhidharma is something common to all Buddhist schools,
Yes, which is why it’s inescapable and why it’s important to study the thoughts and wisdom of all of the ancient masters.
but the contents of this basket are always different.
Not quite.
The sarvastivadins had as Abidharma other texts than the Theravadins, such as the Abidharmakosha (which is the basis of the Japanese school Kusha-shu).
Yes, and it’s important to study it even though the Theravadin Abhidhamma is superior. As for the Abidharmakosha, that isn’t a Sarvāstivādin text and actually seems to contain many errors in its presentation of the Vaibhāṣika position.
What exactly distinguished each of the schools of classical Buddhism was mainly the Abidharmapitaka, which are the considerations and interpretations of the Sutras (Nikayas or Agamas).
Yes. A Theravadin is someone who follows the southern Abhidhamma and associated commentaries, whilst a Vaibhāṣika is someone who follows a northern Abhidharma and the Mahāvibhāṣa.
The Mahasanghikas, in turn, as a way of authorizing and elevating their abidharmic positions, transformed their texts into Sutras (which is now the Mahayana canon).
Whilst Mahayana likely grew out of them, not all Mahasanghikas accepted the Mahayana. They had a schism over this, with some refusing to accept them. Besides, in the end it was the major northern Sthaviras who fully succumbed in the end to Mahayana.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
ronnymarsh
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Four Great References

Post by ronnymarsh »

You probably consider Ekotara Agama to be from the Mahasanghikas under the influence of Bikkhu Sujato's positions, as it is in the Theravada context. However, as Warder demonstrates in "Indian Buddhism", the pratimoksa rules enumerated in the EA are consistent with the number of precepts existing in the vinaya Dharmaguptaka.
Furthermore, there is a characteristic detail in Chinese Buddhism that demonstrates that the most influential texts are of Dharmaguptaka origin: the lineage of ordination.
In China, Korea and Japan (at least in the lineage of the Nara schools) ordination is based on the Dharmagupta vinaya, even the monastic clothes in these lineages are traditionally black, which according to reports was the color of the dharmaguptakas' robes .

The other Mahayanist lineage, Tibetan Buddhism, has its origins in the Sarvastivada lineage, which can be seen in their red robes.

Atisha was ordained by the vinaya Mahasanghika, and was an adherent of that school, but he was not allowed to ordain anyone in Tibet. So Tibetan Buddhism has the vinaya Sarvastivada but the Mahasanghika teaching.

As for the texts, myb you also take into account the descriptions given by opponents (theravadin) obviously, and when this is done, you almost never get a real vision of what the school actually stood for. For this, it is important to have access to primary sources.

The Abidharmakosha was written by Vasubhandu, the developer of the Yogacara doctrine. He may look like a rival, but originally he was a Sarvastivadin who belonged to the Sautantrika (adherents of the Sutras) movement. The formulation of Yogacara was a response to certain problems that the sarvastivada theory generated in relation to the Sutras, so the Sautantrikas, who were sarvastivadas, began to abandon the Abidharma and concentrate on the Sutras.

But because Vasubandhu was a Sarvastivada, his descriptions are better than those of rival Theravadins.

But in addition to Abidharmakosha, all the original books of Abidharma Sarvastivada exist in Chinese tripitaka translation. They are as follows:

Sangitipariyaya: T26, No. 1536
Dharmaskandhashastra: T26, No. 1537
Prajnapitishastra: T26, No. 1538
Vijnanakaya: T26, No. 1539
Dhatukaya: T26, No. 1540
Prakaranapada: T26, No. 1541 and T26, No. 1542

It's a shame, for the time being, they don't exist in Western languages, but who knows the interest they don't generate a translation in the future _/\_
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Four Great References

Post by Coëmgenu »

ronnymarsh wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:27 amYou probably consider Ekotara Agama to be from the Mahasanghikas under the influence of Bikkhu Sujato's positions, as it is in the Theravada context.
AFAIK it's doctrinal content that makes scholars associate EĀ with Mahāsāṃghikas. Particularly, it has a huge focus on buddhānusmṛti, including the claim that this one practice is a "one-vehicle path" to Bodhi, that seems very Mahāsāṃghika-like. Ven Sujāto is hardly the only one. It is, AFAIK, the dominant mainstream consensus among those who study EĀ closely. Warder is of course free to dissent.

In the "Releasing of the Flaming Mouths," the celebrant wears blue, a Mahīśāsaka colour to have your robe. In the "goma" (fire sacrifice) of the Tendai and Shingon sects, the celebrant wears purple. The Dharmarāja of Koyasan always wears purple. Tendai priests wear light tan robes often, but if you're fancy you get green and blue elements added to it. So, yes, Dharmaguptaka Buddhism still exists as rubrics, vinaya rubrics, and practices like the black robes, but not all East Asian Buddhism is traceable as coming mostly from the Dharmaguptakas. IMO it's more the case that they are the only ordination lineage to survive the ages. There used to be more in East Asia.

Here, the abbot of Koyasan on the left is in his purple vestments. The abbot of Enryakuji is in orange.
gettyimages-97480747-1024x1024.jpg
Here, you can see a Mahīśāsaka-derived blue robe still used for certain functions:
buddhist-monks-wearing-unicolored-orange-grey-or-blue-robes-gathered-in-a-monastery-courtyard.jpg
Lastly, this is from the Yamāntaka pūja during the goma carried out by the Shingon sects (I think). You can see purple and green used:
P1010069.jpg
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Four Great References

Post by Coëmgenu »

I'm having a hard time substantiating that the celebrant traditionally wears a blue robe during the Releasing of the Flaming Mouths. I see mostly orange, yellow, and red robes worn by the celebrant in Google searches.

This is a historical costume from an opera for an actor who plays the celebrant of the Flaming Mouth rite at one point in an opera:
blackrobewithpancatathagatacrown.jpeg
The robe may have faded over time. It looks black. I'd wager it was dark blue.

Also, this:
bluerobebeforeenthronement.jpeg
I can't find a picture of him properly enthroned and crowned with the five-dhyāni-buddha crown, but that is the robe.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
asahi
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Four Great References

Post by asahi »

Thr crown suppose to be worn in certain part of the praying ceremony when inviting the hungry ghosts to receive offerings and listen to the dharma .
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Four Great References

Post by Coëmgenu »

Most of the modern performances are with yellow, red, or orange robes. I know I've seen it done old-fashioned with the blue robe and blue-white pañcatathāgata crown, but I can't find a picture of it or the video I would have watched in which it was so performed.

You'll notice that in historical paintings, Venerable Xuánzàng is almost always depicted wearing the blue robe:
xuanzangbluerobes.jpeg
xuanzangblue2.jpeg
xuanzangblue3.jpeg
In modern non-medieval depictions, he wears normal non-blue "modern" Buddhist robes.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Four Great References

Post by neander »

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/11/t-ma ... -face.html

Buddha was first depicted 6 centuries after his death so no one knows how he was dressed..
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Four Great References

Post by Coëmgenu »

Sorry if I was unclear. The points about the colours of the monks' robes wasn't about the colour that the Buddha's robe was. It was in response to:
ronnymarsh wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:27 amIn China, Korea and Japan (at least in the lineage of the Nara schools) ordination is based on the Dharmagupta vinaya, even the monastic clothes in these lineages are traditionally black, which according to reports was the color of the dharmaguptakas' robes .
***
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:35 am
The sarvastivadins had as Abidharma other texts than the Theravadins, such as the Abidharmakosha (which is the basis of the Japanese school Kusha-shu).
Yes, and it’s important to study it even though the Theravadin Abhidhamma is superior. As for the Abidharmakosha, that isn’t a Sarvāstivādin text and actually seems to contain many errors in its presentation of the Vaibhāṣika position.
I'm not sure if it's a matter of errors in its outlining of Vaibhāṣika Buddhism or of the Sautrāntika material in it. Venerable Saṁghabhadra's specific objections to it are not translated yet.

Also, this, "that isn’t a Sarvāstivādin text," isn't quite true as far as I understand the matter. Vaibhāṣika and Sautrāntika are "two orthodoxies" of Sarvāstivāda with a common vinaya and common sūtras between them, as far as I'm aware. When Vaibhāṣikas and Sautrāntikas debate, they are citing the exact same recensions of the sūtras. It is not like when Venerable Harivarman debates his interlocutor in Tattvasiddhiśāstra and they have a disagreement as to whether or not the word "cetasika" appears in a dhyāna formula. They are working with different sūtra-recensions in that case, unless I'm quite mistaken and wrongly infer. So all Sautrāntika works are, technically, Sarvāstivādin.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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