nama-rupa definition in MN 9/SN 12.2: can nama be separated from vinnana?

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starter
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nama-rupa definition in MN 9/SN 12.2: can nama be separated from vinnana?

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Dear friends,

Thanks for your previous help. I'm wondering how could the following definition of nama in nama-rupa in MN 9 and SN 12.2 make sense:

"Feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention - this, friend, is called
'name'. The four great primaries and form dependent on the four great primaries
- this, friend, is called 'form'. So this is 'name' and this is 'form' - this, friend, is
called 'name-and-form'." ...

“With the arising of consciousness there is the arising of mentality-materiality. With the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of mentality-materiality.”

However, feeling and perception (and also volitions and attention) are inseparable from consciousness:

Feeling, perception and consciousness, friend – these states are conjoined
(saṃsaṭṭhā), not disjoined
, and it is impossible to separate each of these states from
the others in order to describe the difference between them. For what one feels,
that one perceives; and what one perceives, that one cognises.” (MN 43)

TMHO, what the Buddha might have meant by nama-rupa could be just the psycho-physical organism grown in the womb. The above-cited definition of nama might be a later development, which doesn't make sense to me.

The following suttas "speak of the descent of nama-rupa" (nāmarūpassa avakkanti ), which "denotes the beginning of sentient life ..." (Bhikkhu Bodhi):

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.58/en/bodhi

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.39/en/bodhi

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.64/en/bodhi

How could "Feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention" be descended or conceived?

Metta to all!

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Ceisiwr
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Re: nama-rupa definition in MN 9/SN 12.2: can nama be separated from vinnana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

starter wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:19 am
I think it’s actually feeling, perception and wisdom. For some reason the translator choose “consciousness”, but that’s not in the Pali if I recall.
How could "Feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention" be descended or conceived?
Namarupa doesn’t always mean the same thing. Just as with the Upanishads it can mean either how we cognise the world or it can mean “that being/thing over there”. So when we read descent of namarupa I would read it as a short hand for “being about to be born/being born” (in the womb). When we read “external name and form” it means external objects.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: nama-rupa definition in MN 9/SN 12.2: can nama be separated from vinnana?

Post by DooDoot »

starter wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:19 am However, feeling and perception (and also volitions and attention) are inseparable from consciousness:
No. The suttas never say volitions & attention are inseparable from consciousness
starter wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:19 amTMHO
There is nothing humble about the opinion
starter wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:19 am what the Buddha might have meant by nama-rupa could be just the psycho-physical organism grown in the womb.
No. What do feeing, perception, intention, contact & attention have to do with the above idea?
starter wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:19 amThe above-cited definition of nama might be a later development...
No. It is Bhikkhu Bodhi's ideas that are later developments.
starter wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:19 amThe following suttas "speak of the descent of nama-rupa" (nāmarūpassa avakkanti ), which "denotes the beginning of sentient life ..." (Bhikkhu Bodhi):
Bhikkhu Bodhi is a pretty good (but not perfect) translator but that's about it.

The word translated as "descent" is the same as the word used for stream "entry". "Descent" simply means mind-boy come into play. For example, the sankhara or thought arises: "I wish to eat ice-cream". This sankhara is merely a thought. But then when your mind & body are aroused to go to the fridge to search for ice-cream, here, the mind & body enter into play (aka descent).
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: nama-rupa definition in MN 9/SN 12.2: can nama be separated from vinnana?

Post by DooDoot »

starter wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:19 am https://suttacentral.net/sn12.39/en/bodhi
SN 12.39 says:
At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, what one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness. When there is a basis, there is a support for the establishing of consciousness. When consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is a descent of name-and-form...

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.39/en/bodhi
Then the very next sutta SN 12.40 says:
At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, what one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness. When there is a basis, there is a support for the establishing of consciousness. When consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is inclination (nati). When there is inclination, there is coming and going...

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.40/en/bodhi
The words 'nati' and 'namati' have the same meaning & root:
nati
feminine
bending; inclination; bent

Sk. nati of nam

https://suttacentral.net/define/nati
namati
present 3 singular
bends; bows; inclines; turns towards

https://suttacentral.net/define/namati
Whatever a mendicant frequently thinks about and considers becomes their heart’s inclination.

Yaññadeva, bhikkhave, bhikkhu bahulamanuvitakketi anuvicāreti, tathā tathā nati hoti cetaso.

If they often think about and consider sensual thoughts, they’ve given up the thought of renunciation to cultivate sensual thought. Their mind inclines to sensual thoughts.

Kāmavitakkañce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu bahulamanuvitakketi anuvicāreti, pahāsi nekkhammavitakkaṁ, kāmavitakkaṁ bahulamakāsi, tassa taṁ kāmavitakkāya cittaṁ namati.

https://suttacentral.net/mn19/en/sujato
Nama-rupa means the mind-body develop the inclination to seek a certain sense object, such as ice-cream; as Buddhaghosa also explained in his Visuddhimagga, namely, 'nama' means 'namati' ('it bends'). :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: nama-rupa definition in MN 9/SN 12.2: can nama be separated from vinnana?

Post by starter »

Hi friends,

Thanks for your input. I'd like to add that most Chinese agama suttas (MA 29, SA 298, T 124) define nama as the four aggregates without the form aggregate. Only one sutta (EA 49.5) has the same definition as MN 9 and SN 12.2.

EA (Ekottara Agama) appeared later than MA and SA, and is considered not so reliable with "proto-Mahayanist additions" according to "The Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts" by Bhikkhu Sujato and Bhikkhu Brahmali.

The above facts lend support to the possibility that the definition of nama in MN 9 and SN 12.2 is a late development.

Metta to all!

MA 29: "云何知名?謂四非色陰為 名。云何知色?謂四大及四大造為色。"

SA 298: "云何名?謂四 無色陰——受陰、想陰、行陰、識陰。云何色?謂四大、 四大所造色,是名為色。"

T 124: "云何為名?謂四無 色蘊:一者受蘊,二者想蘊,三者行蘊,四者識 蘊。云何為色?謂諸所有色,一切四大種,及四 大種所造"

EA 49.5: "所謂名者,痛、想、念、更樂、思惟,是為名。彼云何為色?所謂四大身及四大身所造色, 是謂名為色。"
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Re: nama-rupa definition in MN 9/SN 12.2: can nama be separated from vinnana?

Post by Coëmgenu »

:goodpost:
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: nama-rupa definition in MN 9/SN 12.2: can nama be separated from vinnana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

starter wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:02 pm Hi friends,

Thanks for your input. I'd like to add that most Chinese agama suttas (MA 29, SA 298, T 124) define nama as the four aggregates without the form aggregate. Only one sutta (EA 49.5) has the same definition as MN 9 and SN 12.2.

EA (Ekottara Agama) appeared later than MA and SA, and is considered not so reliable with "proto-Mahayanist additions" according to "The Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts" by Bhikkhu Sujato and Bhikkhu Brahmali.

The above facts lend support to the possibility that the definition of nama in MN 9 and SN 12.2 is a late development.

Metta to all!

MA 29: "云何知名?謂四非色陰為 名。云何知色?謂四大及四大造為色。"

SA 298: "云何名?謂四 無色陰——受陰、想陰、行陰、識陰。云何色?謂四大、 四大所造色,是名為色。"

T 124: "云何為名?謂四無 色蘊:一者受蘊,二者想蘊,三者行蘊,四者識 蘊。云何為色?謂諸所有色,一切四大種,及四 大種所造"

EA 49.5: "所謂名者,痛、想、念、更樂、思惟,是為名。彼云何為色?所謂四大身及四大身所造色, 是謂名為色。"
Nama + consciousness is only found in Northern Agamas whereas nama being distinct from consciousness is found in both.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: nama-rupa definition in MN 9/SN 12.2: can nama be separated from vinnana?

Post by DooDoot »

starter wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:02 pm Hi friends,

The above facts lend support to the possibility that the definition of nama in MN 9 and SN 12.2 is a late development.

Metta to all!"
They are not. Such ideas are not friendly to the dhamma and are not metta. With metta :heart: :ugeek:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: nama-rupa definition in MN 9/SN 12.2: can nama be separated from vinnana?

Post by auto »

From Suttas what Doodoot quoted in this thread, i gather the nāmarūpa is in the heart region.(citta inclines)
also,
https://suttacentral.net/sn20.10/en/sujato wrote: There he sees a female scantily clad, with revealing clothes.
So tattha passati mātugāmaṁ dunnivatthaṁ vā duppārutaṁ vā.
Lust infects his mind,
Tassa mātugāmaṁ disvā dunnivatthaṁ vā duppārutaṁ vā rāgo cittaṁ anuddhaṁseti.
resulting in death or deadly pain.
So rāgānuddhaṁsena cittena maraṇaṁ vā nigacchati maraṇamattaṁ vā dukkhaṁ.

For it is death in the training of the Noble One to resign the training and return to a lesser life.
Maraṇañhetaṁ, bhikkhave, ariyassa vinaye yo sikkhaṁ paccakkhāya hīnāyāvattati.
And it is deadly pain to commit one of the corrupt offenses
Maraṇamattañhetaṁ, bhikkhave, dukkhaṁ yadidaṁ aññataraṁ saṅkiliṭṭhaṁ āpattiṁ āpajjati.
for which rehabilitation is possible.
Yathārūpāya āpattiyā vuṭṭhānaṁ paññāyati.
passati, sees something what is already seen.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato wrote: Supported by the six elements, an embryo is conceived.
Channaṁ, bhikkhave, dhātūnaṁ upādāya gabbhassāvakkanti hoti;
When it is conceived, there are name and form. Name and form are conditions for the six sense fields. The six sense fields are conditions for contact. Contact is a condition for feeling.
okkantiyā sati nāmarūpaṁ, nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṁ, saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso, phassapaccayā vedanā.
Passati(sees), it is going already. It is different from sense organ consciousness(what can be restrained).

Mendicant is thinking if anything has overcome him what would hinder accuracy in his knowing and seeing(passati),
https://suttacentral.net/mn48/en/sujato wrote: It’s when a mendicant has gone to a wilderness, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, and reflects like this,
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu araññagato vā rukkhamūlagato vā suññāgāragato vā iti paṭisañcikkhati:
‘Is there anything that I’m overcome with internally and haven’t given up, because of which I might not accurately know and see?’
‘atthi nu kho me taṁ pariyuṭṭhānaṁ ajjhattaṁ appahīnaṁ, yenāhaṁ pariyuṭṭhānena pariyuṭṭhitacitto yathābhūtaṁ nappajāneyyaṁ na passeyyan’ti?
I think there is difference in sense organ consciousness(viññāṇa) and nāmarūpa, but the difference is because of the knot, in essence they are same.
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