Dhammapada: Kill mother & father

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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DooDoot
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Dhammapada: Kill mother & father

Post by DooDoot »

Dear DW forum

The Dhammapada and I assume its later Commentary say:
Verse 294. The Destroyer Who Reaches Nibbana
One’s mother and father having slain
and then two warrior kings,
a realm as well its treasurer,
one goes immune, a Brahmin True.

Explanation: The brahmin kills the mother - craving, kills the father - egotism, self-cherishing: They represent the two views, Eternalism and Nihilism, opposed to Buddhist thought. The subordinates are clinging to life. And he destroys the defilements which cling to life. Having destroyed all these, the brahmin (arahat) goes without punishment.

Verse 295. The ‘Killer’ Who Goes Free
One’s mother and father having slain
and then two learned kings,
as well the fifth, a tiger fierce,
one goes immune, a Brahmin True.

Explanation: The brahmin (arahat) kills the mother - craving; kills the father - egotism; kills the two learned kings. They represent the two false views eternalism and nihilism. He kills the five tigers (sensuality, hate, mental inertia, worry and skeptical doubt) that obstruct the path. And, having done all these killings, the arahat goes about unaffected.
About this, the Thai monk Buddhadasa said:
FATHER & MOTHER

Now we come to the words "father" and "mothers." In ordinary worldly language, these words refer to the two people responsible for our having been born. But in the deeper language of Dhamma, our "father" is ignorance (avijja) and our "mother" is craving (tanha). They must be killed and gotten rid of completely. For instance, the Buddha said:

"Matram pitram hantva akatannusi brahmana."
"Be ungrateful. Kill the "father," kill the "mother", and you will attain nibbana."

Our father, the one responsible for our birth, is ignorance or not-knowing (avijja); our mother, the other one responsible for our birth, is craving (tanha). The words "father" and "mother" in Dhamma language were given these higher meanings by the Buddha. So the "parents" - avijja and tanha - have to be killed, destroyed completely, for nibbana to be realized.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books2/Bhik ... _Truth.htm
Are there any suttas that support the above Commentary and Buddhadasa interpretations?

Thanks
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Dhammapada: Kill mother & father

Post by AlexBrains92 »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:24 am Dear DW forum

The Dhammapada and I assume its later Commentary say:
Verse 294. The Destroyer Who Reaches Nibbana
One’s mother and father having slain
and then two warrior kings,
a realm as well its treasurer,
one goes immune, a Brahmin True.

Explanation: The brahmin kills the mother - craving, kills the father - egotism, self-cherishing: They represent the two views, Eternalism and Nihilism, opposed to Buddhist thought. The subordinates are clinging to life. And he destroys the defilements which cling to life. Having destroyed all these, the brahmin (arahat) goes without punishment.

Verse 295. The ‘Killer’ Who Goes Free
One’s mother and father having slain
and then two learned kings,
as well the fifth, a tiger fierce,
one goes immune, a Brahmin True.

Explanation: The brahmin (arahat) kills the mother - craving; kills the father - egotism; kills the two learned kings. They represent the two false views eternalism and nihilism. He kills the five tigers (sensuality, hate, mental inertia, worry and skeptical doubt) that obstruct the path. And, having done all these killings, the arahat goes about unaffected.
About this, the Thai monk Buddhadasa said:
FATHER & MOTHER

Now we come to the words "father" and "mothers." In ordinary worldly language, these words refer to the two people responsible for our having been born. But in the deeper language of Dhamma, our "father" is ignorance (avijja) and our "mother" is craving (tanha). They must be killed and gotten rid of completely. For instance, the Buddha said:

"Matram pitram hantva akatannusi brahmana."
"Be ungrateful. Kill the "father," kill the "mother", and you will attain nibbana."

Our father, the one responsible for our birth, is ignorance or not-knowing (avijja); our mother, the other one responsible for our birth, is craving (tanha). The words "father" and "mother" in Dhamma language were given these higher meanings by the Buddha. So the "parents" - avijja and tanha - have to be killed, destroyed completely, for nibbana to be realized.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books2/Bhik ... _Truth.htm
Are there any suttas that support the above Commentary and Buddhadasa interpretations?

Thanks
Hi DooDoot, interesting thread.
What's your interpretation?

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


- Snp 4.5 -
Pulsar
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Re: Dhammapada: Kill mother & father

Post by Pulsar »

DDD wrote
Are there any suttas that support the above Commentary
Does not the sensible suttas in the entire Pali canon support the above.... This is a beautiful verse, ...
one must go to bed every night praying "O lord give me courage to kill my mother and father".
In other words by killing craving we terminate dependent origination of suffering and by killing egotism, self-cherishing, we help the killing of mother.
and Buddhadasa interpretations?
Buddhadhasa merely tweaked the words so that ignorance and resulting self adoration ....becomes avijja. Buddhadasa was a poet. Poets take liberties with words. That is how I see it.
I like the first version better, it is simpler.
Thanks for placing the spotlight on this verse...
Come to think of it, all one ever needs is a few short verses, to get the job done.
With love :candle:
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DooDoot
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Re: Dhammapada: Kill mother & father

Post by DooDoot »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:23 pm Hi DooDoot, interesting thread.
What's your interpretation?
Hi Alex. On face value, without the later commentary, my 1st impression is it means to abandon attachment towards one's parents & family, as follows:
"So, at a later time, while still young, a black-haired young man endowed with the blessings of youth in the first stage of life — and while my parents, unwilling, were crying with tears streaming down their faces — I shaved off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robe and went forth from the home life into homelessness.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
LUKE 14:26

If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%2014%3A26
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Pulsar
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Re: Dhammapada: Kill mother & father

Post by Pulsar »

My Dearest DooDoot you wrote
"On face value, without the later commentary, my 1st impression is it means to abandon attachment towards one's parents & family, as follows"
and what you quoted from Access to insight and the Bible? I do not see how they relate to the Dhammapada verse. Context is important.
Dhammapada verse is related to breakup of Dependent Origination by killing craving for samsara.
Mother is pure metaphor, to communicate the force or resolve required to execute the
killing of craving.
A 24/7 affair of mindfulness as in SN 47.42 Origination, is needed for this task.

If I ask my child "Can you kill your mother?" child would answer "No way". It is that hard to kill the craving that permeates through all our intentions and activity.
Does this qualify as later thinking? I don't quite get you. Can you pl. clarify?
How much more original can it get?
Happy weekend :candle:
PS one way or another your comments have a tendency to inspire me, or disturb me.
I enjoy both. I like having you around. By the way, caring for one'e parents and family has nothing to
do with attachment, soteriologically speaking. To me it comes across as perfected Brahma Vihara, which
Buddha advised.
Bundokji
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Re: Dhammapada: Kill mother & father

Post by Bundokji »

Father and mother, as presented by the OP, are to be slained. The teachings on ānantarika-kamma, however, introduces the notions of intentionality to the act of killing, which is linked to the immediacy of the results in the next life.

The human experience, or the construction of worldly meaning, or memory, require a stabilizer and a mover, which can be replicated ad-infinitum. Beginning with the sexual act between the father and the mother, which results in the birth of a child, the vagina functions as a stabilizer to the movement of the penis, and the act of conception becomes a matter of time. The birth of the sexual act, which can be said to begin with the intention to copulate, ends with ejaculation. The mother, through beautifying herself, have a gravitational effect on the wandering and unruly male, akin to going into a trip and not knowing where to stop until encountering a beautiful scene.

The game of existence takes place in the interval between the intention to act and the intention to end. As a general rule, premature ejaculation is considered a problem, akin to premature death, so people use techniques and medicine to prolong the process of copulation, building up enough burden to make the release more pleasurable.

As such, killing the father and mother can be understood as ending this sorry state of affairs.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Pulsar
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Re: Dhammapada: Kill mother & father

Post by Pulsar »

Bundokji wrote
As such, killing the father and mother can be understood as ending this sorry state of affairs.
Thanks for putting another spin on the same episode. Quite clever, the gory details you provide, to
describe our affair with samsara. I was trying to think of the word...
The teachings on ānantarika-kamma, however, introduces the notions of intentionality to the act of killing, which is linked to the immediacy of the results in the next life.
It is as if you read my mind, now I have the answer, so much to remember. It is nice to have a clever friend like you.
With love :candle:
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Tennok
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Re: Dhammapada: Kill mother & father

Post by Tennok »

There is a famous Puttamansa sutta that compares monk's daily meal to devouring of son's flesh by parents.

And there is this sutta:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"There are these five inhabitants of the states of deprivation, inhabitants of hell, who are in agony & incurable. Which five? One who has killed his/her mother, one who has killed his/her father, one who has killed an arahant, one who — with a corrupted mind — has caused the blood of a Tathagata to flow, and one who has caused a split in the Sangha. These are the five inhabitants of the states of deprivation, inhabitants of hell, who are in agony & incurable".

So Ven. Buddhadasa chose a really strong language here. Perhaps in order to highlight the difficulty of the task at hand.

Btw., the advice to kill your own father sounds very much like Jezus...and Jim Morrison, too.
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