Chinese Dharmapada T210 Verse 9

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Coëmgenu
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Chinese Dharmapada T210 Verse 9

Post by Coëmgenu »

This post was elsewhere, but while I was moving my response to "Early Buddhism," the root quotation was removed, likely because it was accidentally posted in "Classical Theravada" where it was off-topic. If the post was removed for some other reason and I'm inadvertently undoing moderation, apologies.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:30 amThe equivalent in Dhammapada of the Chinese Canon uses a term that can be translated as 'impelled by mind'.
There are actually several Dharmapadas of unknown sectarian affiliation in the Taisho Canon in addition to several Udānavargas. Do you know which one you are citing? I suspect that "impelled by" here is "driven forward by" or "commanded by" and not "ensorcelled." but I don't know which character you mean or where to search in the Canon.

NVM, I think I found it. T210.562a11:

心為法本,  心尊心使,  中心念惡,
即言即行,  罪苦自追,  車轢于轍;
心為法本,  心尊心使,  中心念善,
即言即行,  福樂自追,  如影隨形。

The mind is the root of the dharmas, the mind is their master(,) and the mind commands them. If there is evil within the mind,
when you speak and when you act, suffering naturally follows. The cart rolls over the ruts (in the path).
The mind is the root of the dharmas, the mind is their master(,) and the mind commands them. If there is virtue within the mind,
when you speak and when you act, fortune and happiness naturally follow. It is like how the shadow follows the shape.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Chinese Dharmapada T210 Verse 9

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:25 pm This post was elsewhere, but while I was moving my response to "Early Buddhism," the root quotation was removed, likely because it was accidentally posted in "Classical Theravada" where it was off-topic. If the post was removed for some other reason and I'm inadvertently undoing moderation, apologies.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:30 amThe equivalent in Dhammapada of the Chinese Canon uses a term that can be translated as 'impelled by mind'.
There are actually several Dharmapadas of unknown sectarian affiliation in the Taisho Canon in addition to several Udānavargas. Do you know which one you are citing? I suspect that "impelled by" here is "driven forward by" or "commanded by" and not "ensorcelled." but I don't know which character you mean or where to search in the Canon.

NVM, I think I found it. T210:

心為法本,  心尊心使,  中心念惡,
即言即行,  罪苦自追,  車轢于轍;
心為法本,  心尊心使,  中心念善,
即言即行,  福樂自追,  如影隨形。

The mind is the root of the dharmas, the mind is their master(,) and the mind commands them. If there is evil within the mind,
when you speak and when you act, suffering naturally follows. The cart rolls over the ruts (in the path).
The mind is the root of the dharmas, the mind is their master(,) and the mind commands them. If there is virtue within the mind,
when you speak and when you act, fortune and happiness naturally follow. It is like how the shadow follows the shape.
Yes, looks like you indeed found it.
The question is, does it give a different connotation at all to the Pali equivalent verse with the term 'all dhammas are mind-made'?
Clearly the intent is not changed as it is about restraint of the mind and actions but it is interesting that the Pali verse chooses this term.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Chinese Dharmapada T210 Verse 9

Post by Coëmgenu »

The Chinese version has the mind like a general in an army. "Is their master," "commands them." There is a parallel between the two: "The master commands."

It's oddly different from any meaning of manomaya I am familiar with. Ven Ṭhānissaro clarifies, and I found this substantiated in a few other places too:
All Pali recensions of this verse give the reading, manomaya = made of the heart, while all other recensions give the reading manojava = impelled by the heart.
(Ven Ṭhānissaro, footnotes 1-2 from The Dhammapada: A Translation)

So the Indic version this was translated from literally has a different word there, "manojava." Scholars argue about whether the Pāli version or the other versions are corrupt.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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DooDoot
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Re: Chinese Dharmapada T210 Verse 9

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:25 pm The mind is the root of the dharmas, the mind is their master(,) and the mind commands them.
The word "commands" above is actually very interesting because it would only include into "dharmas" what can be commanded. For example, in his 2nd sermon, the Buddha made very clear what cannot be commanded:
"Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would not lend itself to disease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to disease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.'

"Feeling is not self...

"Perception is not self...

"[Mental] fabrications are not self...

"Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were the self, this consciousness would not lend itself to disease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' But precisely because consciousness is not self, consciousness lends itself to disease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.'

SN 22.59
The above logic shows "dharmas" in Dhp 1 & 2 does not mean "phenomena" but means doctrines/views of behaviour. :smile:
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