What Are The Rupa Jhanas?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Pondera
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What Are The Rupa Jhanas?

Post by Pondera »

In analyzing AN 11.7 we encounter the following
“Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this? They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”

“It could be, Ānanda, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this.
As far as the last four immersions are concerned we are presented with the arupa Jhanas. But what of the four elements preceding those? Are they indicative of rupa jhana?

Consider that one of the fermentations is “becoming” and that the Buddha taught a desire for “form rebirth and formless rebirth”.

As far as the above sutta is concerned, the hypothetical Bhante is not subject to formless rebirth. Why? He does not perceive space in space; consciousness in consciousness; etcetera. But how?

By attending to the arupa Jhanas the Bhante has seen the allure and the drawbacks of those arupa Jhanas. Since he has experienced them so deeply and developed dispassion for them he does not “perceive x in x”.

Here is where we can make an inference by asking the question: how about rebirth in the realm of form?

Quite simply - the Bhante has also deeply understood earth, water, fire, and wind. Having understood their allure and drawback he has grown dispassionate towards them. Having done that he no longer clings to the perception of earth, water, fire, or wind. And, consequently, he will not be reborn in the realm of form.

It is precisely because we must train to see the drawback of the rupas that we must enter into a deep meditation of them. And having seen the piti and sukha, or just the sukha, or just the adukkhaasukkha in them that we grow dispassionate towards them.

This is one example of a basic inference I have personally made regarding rupa jhana and the four elements.

Aside from inference, I have found the quintessential location of the rupa kasinas (“totalities”) as they exist in the heart in their purest forms. Having located them, I can experience the underlying allure of the rupas (as well as their drawback - ie. continued existence in the realm of form).

I present this argument for the sake of clarifying the objects of meditation with regard to rupa jhana.

Thank you 🤔
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DooDoot
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Re: What Are The Rupa Jhanas?

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Pondera wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:27 am the Buddha taught a desire for “form rebirth and formless rebirth”.
The Buddha did not teach the above as a fetter. The Buddha taught lust for form & formless. In the teaching of the fetters, 'rebirth' is not mentioned. The 'rebirth' is Sujatoism. :smile:
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Pondera
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Re: What Are The Rupa Jhanas?

Post by Pondera »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:45 am
Pondera wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:27 am the Buddha taught a desire for “form rebirth and formless rebirth”.
The Buddha did not teach the above as a fetter. The Buddha taught lust for form & formless. In the teaching of the fetters, 'rebirth' is not mentioned. The 'rebirth' is Sujatoism. :smile:
Well, we can set aside the question of rebirth of course.

The question of emancipation in this very life relies on establishing dispassion towards the realm of form and the formless realm.

Which is why I draw attention to the elements defined in this sutta. And also why I make the above mentioned inference.
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pegembara
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Re: What Are The Rupa Jhanas?

Post by pegembara »

The levels of meditative attainments are described.

There are the four jhanas, going on to -
Infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness, neither perception nor non-perception, and finally cessation of feeling and perception.
For half a month, Sariputta clearly saw insight[1] into mental qualities one after another. This is what occurred to Sariputta through insight into mental qualities one after another:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Another more simplistic description is to be found in the Cullavedalla sutta.
Active thinking stops, then breathing(perception of body), and eventually, everything(perception of space/time, consciousness, nothingness etc) stops.
"Now, lady, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to attain the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am attaining the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have attained the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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DooDoot
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Re: What Are The Rupa Jhanas?

Post by DooDoot »

Pondera wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:27 am I present this argument for the sake of clarifying the objects of meditation with regard to rupa jhana.
It appears why the term "rupa" jhana is used is never explained in the scriptures. The Ajahn Brahm school and also DW's own Venerable Dhammanando suggest "rupa" refers to the "nimitta" mental image. Personally, I disagree.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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