Thanissaro: Is there a 'paradox of becoming'?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
un8-
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:49 am

Re: Thanissaro: Is there a 'paradox of becoming'?

Post by un8- »

I found this Udana 3.10 reference in Petakopadesa, but this is the Sujato translation (the nanamoli translation in petakopadesa is better imho)
In this way one seeing with right wisdom
Evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ,
in accord with truth,
Sammappaññāya passato;
gives up craving for continued existence,
Bhavataṇhā pahīyati,
while not look forward to ending existence.
Vibhavaṁ nābhinandati;
Extinguishment comes from the ending of all cravings;
Sabbaso taṇhānaṁ khayā,
fading away and cessation with nothing left over.
Asesavirāganirodho nibbānaṁ.

There is no further existence
Tassa nibbutassa bhikkhuno,
for that mendicant extinguished without grasping.
Anupādā punabbhavo na hoti;
So to me, the Ven Bodhesako interpretation makes way more sense when applied to this sutta.

Which I will retranslate it as

"<an arahant> gives up craving for what is present (bhava), while not look forward to what is absent (vibhava). Extinguishment comes from the ending of all cravings;"

i.e. he doesn't crave things that appear in his present experience (e.g. a woman crossing him in the streets, tasty food in his peripheral vision), nor does he crave escape towards absent experiences when he is hit by painful experiences (e.g. wishing/fantasizing for a different experience when he is gravely ill).

An example in the suttas are the monks who committed suicide from doing too much asubha, they sought non-experience (annihilation), they had given up kamatanha and bhavatanha, but not vibhavatanha. It's only once the Buddha returned from retreat and taught Anapanasati, did the monks learn to calm aversion towards present experience which got rid of vibhavatanha.

You can also see in MN62 the Buddha teaches Rahula first insight work, like the 3 characteristics and 4 elements, then after he teaches him Anapanasati, to calm aversion leading to vibhavatanha
Then the Blessed One, looking back at Rahula, addressed him: "Rahula, any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'"

"Just form, O Blessed One? Just form, O One Well-gone?"

"Form, Rahula, & feeling & perception & fabrications & consciousness."

Then the thought occurred to Ven. Rahula, "Who, having been exhorted face-to-face by the Blessed One, would go into the town for alms today?" So he turned back and sat down at the foot of a tree, folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, & setting mindfulness to the fore.

Ven. Sariputta saw Ven. Rahula sitting at the foot of a tree, his legs folded crosswise, his body held erect, & with mindfulness set to the fore. On seeing him, he said to him, "Rahula, develop the meditation[2] of mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. The meditation of mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit."
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Thanissaro: Is there a 'paradox of becoming'?

Post by auto »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:54 am .
these same Suttas what hint namarupa is nati
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.39/en/sujato wrote:When consciousness is established, name and form are conceived.
Tasmiṁ patiṭṭhite viññāṇe virūḷhe nāmarūpassa avakkanti hoti.
Name and form are conditions for the six sense fields.
Nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṁ;
The six sense fields are conditions for contact.
saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso;
Contact is a condition for feeling. …
phassapaccayā vedanā …pe…
craving …
taṇhā …
grasping …
upādānaṁ …
continued existence …
bhavo …
rebirth …
jāti …
old age and death,
jarāmaraṇaṁ …
sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress come to be.
sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā sambhavanti.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.40/en/sujato wrote:When consciousness is established and grows, there is an inclination.
Tasmiṁ patiṭṭhite viññāṇe virūḷhe nati hoti.
When there is an inclination, there is coming and going.
Natiyā sati āgatigati hoti.
When there is coming and going, there is passing away and reappearing.
Āgatigatiyā sati cutūpapāto hoti.
When there is passing away and reappearing, future rebirth, old age, and death come to be, as do sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress.
Cutūpapāte sati āyatiṁ jāti jarāmaraṇaṁ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā sambhavanti.
possible is that the bhava is cutūpapāto.
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