Thanissaro: Is there awareness of breathing in jhana?

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DooDoot
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Thanissaro: Is there awareness of breathing in jhana?

Post by DooDoot »

Dear DW Early Buddhism forum

Thanissaro Bhikkhu appears to claim there is awareness of breathing in jhana, as follows:
Some people say there shouldn’t be any thinking in jhana—that when the Buddha was talking about vitakka and vicara in the context of jhana, he meant something else. But if that were true, he would have been a pretty careless teacher. Usually, when he used his words in a special way, he would take pains to explain the special meaning. But in his descriptions of the first jhana, there’s none of that.

In the similes he gives for the four jhanas, the image he gives for vitakka and vicara in the first jhana is the activity of a bathman. In those days, they didn’t have bars of soap. If you were going to take a bath, you needed a bathman to mix soap powder with water to make a kind of dough that you would then rub over your body. The bathman would have to knead the water into the dough so that the entire ball of dough would be moist, and yet it wouldn’t drip.

This corresponds, when you’re in the first jhana, to taking the sense of rapture and pleasure that builds up around the breath and learning to work it all the way through the body, so that the entire body is saturated with rapture and pleasure. You have to direct your thoughts to questions like: Where is the pleasure to begin with? How do you maintain it? How do you work it through the body? Where is it blocked? And how can you work it through those blockages? Those questions count as evaluation.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Medit ... n0033.html
Are there any suttas that support Venerable Thanissaro's ideas? Are there suttas that oppose his ideas?

Please discuss :thanks:
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SarathW
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Re: Thanissaro: Is there awareness of breathing in jhana?

Post by SarathW »

Perception is still there in Jhana.
So I think the perception of breathing still there in Jhana.
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: Thanissaro: Is there awareness of breathing in jhana?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:22 am Perception is still there in Jhana.
So I think the perception of breathing still there in Jhana.
:shrug:
Thanks but this topic is about Suttas rather than personal ideas.

This said, the question is about perception of breathing in jhana rather than perception in jhana.

:focus:
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DooDoot
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Re: Thanissaro: Is there awareness of breathing in jhana?

Post by DooDoot »

AN 3.86 may be related to this topic. It says:
Take the case of a mendicant who has fulfilled their ethics, but has limited immersion and wisdom. They break some lesser and minor training rules, but are restored. Why is that? Because I don’t say they’re incapable of that. But they’re constant and steady in their precepts regarding the training rules that are fundamental, befitting the spiritual path. They keep the rules they’ve undertaken. With the ending of three fetters they’re a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.

Take another case of a mendicant who has fulfilled their ethics, but has limited immersion and wisdom. They break some lesser and minor training rules, but are restored. Why is that? Because I don’t say they’re incapable of that. But they’re constant and steady in their precepts regarding the training rules that are fundamental, befitting the spiritual path. They keep the rules they’ve undertaken. With the ending of three fetters, and the weakening of greed, hate, and delusion, they’re a once-returner. They come back to this world once only, then make an end of suffering.

Take another case of a mendicant who has fulfilled their ethics and immersion, but has limited wisdom. They break some lesser and minor training rules, but are restored. Why is that? Because I don’t say they’re incapable of that. But they’re constant and steady in their precepts regarding the training rules that are fundamental, befitting the spiritual path. They keep the rules they’ve undertaken. With the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world.

Take another case of a mendicant who has fulfilled their ethics, immersion, and wisdom. They break some lesser and minor training rules, but are restored. Why is that? Because I don’t say they’re incapable of that. But they’re constant and steady in their precepts regarding the training rules that are fundamental, befitting the spiritual path. They keep the rules they’ve undertaken. They realize the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life. And they live having realized it with their own insight due to the ending of defilements.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.86/en/sujato
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pegembara
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Re: Thanissaro: Is there awareness of breathing in jhana?

Post by pegembara »

As mentioned in a recent thread.
"Now, lady, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to attain the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am attaining the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have attained the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."
Vitakka/vicara is the first to go.

There is no mention of jhana in the Cullavedalla but one can infer that awareness of breathing is present in the absence of vitakka/vicara which means while still in jhana.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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DooDoot
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Re: Thanissaro: Is there awareness of breathing in jhana?

Post by DooDoot »

pegembara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:06 am Vitakka/vicara is the first to go.
An interesting quote however are you sure vitakka & vicara here is referring to jhana? For example, MN 44 says:
First you apply & sustain thought, then you break into speech. That’s why applied & sustained thought are the condition for speech.

Pubbe kho, āvuso visākha, vitakketvā vicāretvā pacchā vācaṁ bhindati, tasmā vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro.
Your quoting of MN 44 gives an impression you believe when vitakka & vicara occurs in jhana; speech also occurs in jhana.
pegembara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:06 amThere is no mention of jhana in the Cullavedalla
Yes this appears logically so.
pegembara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:06 am but one can infer that awareness of breathing is present in the absence of vitakka/vicara which means while still in jhana.
It appears not. It appears the above inference cannot be made from MN 44 because vitakka & vicara in MN 44 refer to the requisite condition for speech rather than to factors of jhana.

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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