Is there "rebirth" without self-view ???

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
sphairos
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Re: Is there "rebirth" without self-view ???

Post by sphairos »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:23 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:19 pm Well, that's vaguely more reasonable than your last statement. It was still a blunder. "There is no unsatisfactoriness of life in Buddhism," is your "weird personal interpretation."
I find it strange that someone with an MA in Buddhist studies would fail to recognise that what I said wasn't a personal interpretation. I would have thought they would have recognised it from elsewhere.
First, I never said that I have MA in Buddhist studies, I have MA in Religious studies, and it was long ago, second, it is your incorrect personal interpretation. It's not only yours, but it still is.
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sphairos
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Re: Is there "rebirth" without self-view ???

Post by sphairos »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:39 pm Well, there you go.

I hope you have fun on this thread here.

I'm not going to bother to correct you, which will likely allow you have to maximal fun.
No-no, don't worry, I will make a separate thread -- "Fun with Coëmgenu" or smth like that.
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How true are your ways?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is there "rebirth" without self-view ???

Post by Coëmgenu »

Well, if it's going to be so pointed, I'd be wary of the TOS. Why not "correcting bad mistakes on public fora" or something more general but then all the mistakes are mine? That is less likely to be moderated.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is there "rebirth" without self-view ???

Post by Ceisiwr »

sphairos wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:40 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:23 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:19 pm Well, that's vaguely more reasonable than your last statement. It was still a blunder. "There is no unsatisfactoriness of life in Buddhism," is your "weird personal interpretation."
I find it strange that someone with an MA in Buddhist studies would fail to recognise that what I said wasn't a personal interpretation. I would have thought they would have recognised it from elsewhere.
First, I never said that I have MA in Buddhist studies, I have MA in Religious studies, and it was long ago, second, it is your incorrect personal interpretation. It's not only yours, but it still is.
Painting it as if it is some personal quirk of mine really is disingenuous, since I assume you well know it is standard Orthodox Theravāda. Its also the interpretation of EBT folk such as Ven. Sujato. Whilst I'm still working my way though the Sarvāstivādin Abhidharma, I believe they taught something similar. So, it's hardly my "personal interpretation" in the manner you have been painting it. It's also how it is. The Buddha did experience pain, and pain is a form of dukkha. How can we square this with his liberation from suffering? Because dependent origination is a process that spans lives.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is there "rebirth" without self-view ???

Post by Ceisiwr »

sphairos wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:37 pm
An expert in Greek now :roll: You will be an expert in Quantum Mechanics next.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
sphairos
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Re: Is there "rebirth" without self-view ???

Post by sphairos »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:47 pm
sphairos wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:40 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:23 pm

I find it strange that someone with an MA in Buddhist studies would fail to recognise that what I said wasn't a personal interpretation. I would have thought they would have recognised it from elsewhere.
First, I never said that I have MA in Buddhist studies, I have MA in Religious studies, and it was long ago, second, it is your incorrect personal interpretation. It's not only yours, but it still is.
Painting it as if it is some personal quirk of mine really is disingenuous, since I assume you well know it is standard Orthodox Theravāda. Its also the interpretation of EBT folk such as Ven. Sujato. Whilst I'm still working my way though the Sarvāstivādin Abhidharma, I believe they taught something similar. So, it's hardly my "personal interpretation" in the manner you have been painting it. It's also how it is. The Buddha did experience pain, and pain is a form of dukkha. How can we square this with his liberation from suffering? Because dependent origination is a process that spans lives.
I am already tired and I need to get back to the texts, including the Gāndhārī texts BTW, but it is nowhere said in the Pāli texts "life is suffering/unsatisfactory". So anyone who says something of the like is mistaken. In Buddhism it is carefully explicated what suffering is, and "life" isn't suffering. It is sometimes implied that the Buddha felt pain in a very few texts, but he was Enlightened and "untraceable", so you don't really know what and how he felt, because his state can not be described with pañcupādānakhandhā and because the language itself, according to him, doesn't/can't convey/articulate (true) reality.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is there "rebirth" without self-view ???

Post by Coëmgenu »

Give credit where credit's due. My Ancient Greek is bad and it's been 5 years since I studied it and only at the undergraduate level. I do make a mistake there and do my best to subsequently defer to experts, as anyone can see from following the linked thread. Regardless of any attempts to defer, my post starting "IMO, it's a normal" is quite wrong and Sphairos is correct to point it out.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is there "rebirth" without self-view ???

Post by Ceisiwr »

sphairos wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:59 pm

I am already tired and I need to get back to the texts, including the Gāndhārī texts BTW, but it is nowhere said in the Pāli texts "life is suffering/unsatisfactory". So anyone who says something of the like is mistaken. In Buddhism it is carefully explicated what suffering is, and "life" isn't suffering. It is sometimes implied that the Buddha felt pain in a very few texts, but he was Enlightened and "untraceable", so you don't really know what and how he felt, because his state can not be described with pañcupādānakhandhā and because the language itself, according to him, doesn't/can't convey/articulate (true) reality.
If all conditioned dhammas are dukkha, if all vedanā is dukkha, then yes life is dukkha. The only thing that is free from dukkha is nibbāna. Life is not nibbāna.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is there "rebirth" without self-view ???

Post by Coëmgenu »

sphairos wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:59 pmit is nowhere said in the Pāli texts "life is suffering/unsatisfactory"
This point is less good. Buddhism is not reducible IMO to the contents of texts.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Is there "rebirth" without self-view ???

Post by confusedlayman »

Whats the difference between process rebirth and conventional rebirth? I dont see any problem
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Pulsar
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Re: Is there "rebirth" without self-view ???

Post by Pulsar »

Sphairos wrote
I am already tired and I need to get back to the texts, including the Gāndhārī texts BTW, but it is nowhere said in the Pāli texts "life is suffering/unsatisfactory".
Thanks, it is worth noting, unless approached with greed, hatred and delusion.
How can life be suffering for the one who is enlightened?
So anyone who says something of the like is mistaken. In Buddhism it is carefully explicated what suffering is, and "life" isn't suffering.
  • It is sometimes implied that the Buddha felt pain in a very few texts, but he was Enlightened and "untraceable",
so you don't really know what and how he felt, because his state can not be described with pañcupādānakhandhā and because the language itself, according to him, doesn't/can't convey/articulate (true) reality.
This is brilliant, often puthujjanas stupidly say Buddha suffered, due to pain etc, It is a delusion of the stupid mind.
How can the stupid mind know the brilliance of the Buddha/Arahant? Arahants have clearly gone beyond the range. Thank you Dearest Sphairos, for being here at DW. We need more scholarly minds like yours, who tell it as it is.
The truth is the language in the canon is faulty at times, which misleads people.
I can give a couple of glaring examples later.
Earlier you wrote
The Buddha instructed that the five clinging aggregates is dukkha, but five clinging aggregates are just modes of perception. When you radically change
your cognitive apparatus, there is no suffering anymore. That's what the transcendental dependent arising illustrates.
You are doubly brilliant.
Problem is, many buddhists are clueless regarding Dependent Origination. How can they transcend something that they do not understand?
Be well :candle:
pegembara
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Re: Is there "rebirth" without self-view ???

Post by pegembara »

The Buddha instructed that the five clinging aggregates is dukkha, but five clinging aggregates are just modes of perception. When you radically change
your cognitive apparatus, there is no suffering anymore. That's what the transcendental dependent arising illustrates.
:goodpost:

Is there rebirth with transcendence?
"So in brief, there's suffering
& there's the Dhamma
always with the mind.
Contemplate this until you see the truth,
and the mind will be completely cool.
However great the pleasure or pain,
they'll cause you no fear.
No longer drunk with the cause of suffering,
the mind's well-gone.
Knowing just this much is enough
to soothe your fevers,
and to rest from your search for a path to release.
The mind knowing the Dhamma forgets
the mind attached to dust.
The heart knowing the Dhamma of ultimate ease
sees for sure that the khandhas are always stressful.
The Dhamma stays as the Dhamma,
the khandhas stay as khandhas, that's all.

The Ballad of Liberation from the Khandhas

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... allad.html
"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Bundokji
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Re: Is there "rebirth" without self-view ???

Post by Bundokji »

Is there self view without rebirth?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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DooDoot
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Re: Is there "rebirth" without self-view ???

Post by DooDoot »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:46 am Is there self view without rebirth?
Yes. Because self-view arises before "rebirth".
‘Alas, this world has fallen into trouble. It’s born, grows old, dies, passes away, and is reborn,

‘kicchaṁ vatāyaṁ loko āpanno jāyati ca jīyati ca mīyati ca cavati ca upapajjati ca.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.10/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Bundokji
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Re: Is there "rebirth" without self-view ???

Post by Bundokji »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:56 am
Bundokji wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:46 am Is there self view without rebirth?
Yes. Because self-view arises before "rebirth".
‘Alas, this world has fallen into trouble. It’s born, grows old, dies, passes away, and is reborn,

‘kicchaṁ vatāyaṁ loko āpanno jāyati ca jīyati ca mīyati ca cavati ca upapajjati ca.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.10/en/sujato
I am not sure how this is known, but volitional actions are explained by placing self view before rebirth.

If we take DO origination as a middle path between the extremes of free will and determinism, i would say a deterministic view is more inline with mundane right view.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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