Early Commentary?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Ceisiwr
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Early Commentary?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ven. Anālayo has pointed out that some of the commentary that we find in Theravāda is actually embedded in sutras in the northern texts. This would indicate that said commentaries are rather old, since they would pre-date the split between Theravāda and Sarvāstivāda. I'm not sure if this qualifies or not, but I noticed a passage in this āgama matches an explanation found in the Visuddhimagga. Thought I would share it.

“Monks, when the eye arises, there is no place from which it comes; when it ceases, there is no place to which it goes. Thus, the eye, being not real, arises; having arisen it ceases completely. It is a result of previous action but it has no doer."

https://suttacentral.net/sa335/en/choong

"As to how to be seen: here all formed bases should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. For they do not come from anywhere prior to their rise, nor do they go anywhere after their fall."

Visuddhimagga - CHAPTER XV The Bases and Elements

One difference between the two is that the āgama says the dhammas are unreal, whilst in the Visuddhimagga it states they are real whilst they persist.
6. As to how to be seen: here all formed bases should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. For they do not come from anywhere prior to their rise, nor do they go anywhere after their fall. On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence, and after their fall their individual essences are completely dissolved. And they occur without mastery [being exercisable over them] since they exist in dependence on conditions and in between the past and the future. Hence they should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
asahi
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Re: Early Commentary?

Post by asahi »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:20 am
One difference between the two is that the āgama says the dhammas are unreal, whilst in the Visuddhimagga it states they are real whilst they persist.
What do you take unreal as in agama ? In what sense .
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Early Commentary?

Post by Ceisiwr »

asahi wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 6:27 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:20 am
One difference between the two is that the āgama says the dhammas are unreal, whilst in the Visuddhimagga it states they are real whilst they persist.
What do you take unreal as in agama ? In what sense .
Ah yes. It does seem to just mean something like “having not been”.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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retrofuturist
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Re: Early Commentary?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

It was established in a recent topic that Saṁyuktāgama 273 is another example of commentarial thinking being smuggled into Agamas, although this was not well received.

:popcorn:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Early Commentary?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:20 am ...
One difference between the two is that the āgama says the dhammas are unreal, whilst in the Visuddhimagga it states they are real whilst they persist.
...

:goodpost:

Thanks.
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
Pulsar
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Re: Early Commentary?

Post by Pulsar »

OP wrote
One difference between the two is that the āgama says the dhammas are unreal,
Sounds very sensible, given that to the Buddha, consciousness was a magic trick.
whilst in the Visuddhimagga it states they are real whilst they persist.
perhsps to VSM consciousness was not a magic trick. Did not the elders tweak the teachings of the Buddha, to suit the elderly philosophy.
It is time to revisit Retro's thread on abhidhamma. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=40493. That thread was a godsend to me. Now I see all the places where commentaries seeped into some of the suttas.
With love :candle:
Ontheway
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Re: Early Commentary?

Post by Ontheway »

To the op, I am not sure if it is helpful but you can take a look on this essay on Abhidhamma comparison:

http://tibetanbuddhistencyclopedia.com/ ... Abhidhamma
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Early Commentary?

Post by salayatananirodha »

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.01.nypo.html wrote:He who does not find core or substance
in any of the realms of being,
like flowers which are vainly sought
in fig trees that bear none,
— such a monk gives up the here and the beyond,
just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.

He who bears no grudges in his heart,
transcending all this "thus" and "otherwise,"
— such a monk gives up the here and the beyond,
just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.

He who has burned out his evil thoughts,
entirely cut them off within his heart,
— such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as the
serpent sheds its worn-out skin.

He who neither goes too far nor lags behind,
entirely transcending the diffuseness of the world,
— such a monk gives up the here and the beyond,
just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.

He who neither goes too far nor lags behind
and knows about the world: "This is all unreal,"
— such a monk gives up the here and the beyond,
just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.

He who neither goes too far nor lags behind,
greedless he knows: "This is all unreal,"
— such a monk gives up the here and the beyond,
just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.

He who neither goes too far nor lags behind,
lust-free he knows: "This is all unreal,"
— such a monk gives up the here and the beyond,
just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.

He who neither goes too far nor lags behind,
hate-free he knows: "This is all unreal,"
— such a monk gives up the here and the beyond,
just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.

He who neither goes too far nor lags behind,
delusion-free he knows: "This is all unreal,"
— such a monk gives up the here and the beyond,
just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.
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auto
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Re: Early Commentary?

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:50 pm OP wrote
op wrote:One difference between the two is that the āgama says the dhammas are unreal,
Sounds very sensible, given that to the Buddha, consciousness was a magic trick.
op wrote:whilst in the Visuddhimagga it states they are real whilst they persist.
perhsps to VSM consciousness was not a magic trick. Did not the elders tweak the teachings of the Buddha, to suit the elderly philosophy.
It is time to revisit Retro's thread on abhidhamma. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=40493. That thread was a godsend to me. Now I see all the places where commentaries seeped into some of the suttas.
With love :candle:
I suggest looking if Visuddhimagga says what OP claims it to be saying. Your agenda is shown, you are trying to undermine commentaries. I thought this is not a political forum.
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