The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

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Coëmgenu
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by Coëmgenu »

samseva wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:53 am
DooDoot wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:35 amBut, yes, the dictionaries are wrong, imo. :smile:
Maybe it's your interpretation of them that is incorrect?
Looks like you've hit the nail on the head. The dictionary is rejected here because it complicates an untenable thesis held by the OP which that OP does not want complicated.
What is the Uncreated?
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It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:56 am
samseva wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:53 am
DooDoot wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:35 amBut, yes, the dictionaries are wrong, imo. :smile:
Maybe it's your interpretation of them that is incorrect?
Looks like you've hit the nail on the head. The dictionary is rejected here because it complicates an untenable thesis held by the OP which that OP does not want complicated.
Unsubstantiated.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ok. Why do you think the dictionary is wrong here other than that it contradicts your theories?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:00 pm Ok. Why do you think the dictionary is wrong here other than that it contradicts your theories?
Please read the topic. The question has already been answered repeatedly. :reading:
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by Coëmgenu »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:22 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:00 pm Ok. Why do you think the dictionary is wrong here other than that it contradicts your theories?
Please read the topic. The question has already been answered repeatedly. :reading:
I did read the topic. In actuality, said question hasn't been answered repeatedly. When you've participated in the thread thus far, you've just stated your thesis repeatedly. While stating your thesis, you've generally accompanied the repetitions with sutta quotes that do not support your thesis.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:02 pm While stating your thesis, you've generally accompanied the repetitions with sutta quotes that do not support your thesis.
Again, unsubstantiated. I gave the example of a Pali scholar who gets angry & self-righteous when asked questions about Pali that he thinks threatens his personal ideology.

This "becoming" angry & self-righteous surely is called "becoming". But it does not appear to be "sensual becoming". Surely becoming angry about Pali language cannot be something "sensual"? :shrug:

Are you suggesting becoming angry and developing an angry disposition is not "bhava"? Thanks :thanks:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by Coëmgenu »

This sort of nonsense doesn't belong in the Pali forum, tbh. You gave an example, etc., etc. It matters little the example if there's no Pali behind it, especially in this subforum. I understand that you have "an idea," a special theory, whatever you want to call it, about the meaning of the two words in your OP. Examples using them are what you should be using, examples pulled from source materials. A personal anecdote, a description of an imagined person, an imagined "Pali scholar," imaginings about how angry and self-righteous you imagine him to be: these are not valid examples to support the sort of novel and innovative modernist theory you want to push. Big claims require big evidence.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by Assaji »

Hi Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:54 am This sort of nonsense doesn't belong in the Pali forum, tbh.
Yes, this incessant flood clearly doesn't belong in the Pāli forum of the Theravāda Buddhist Doctrine section, and I sincerely hope that admins will handle this appropriately.

:anjali:
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by DooDoot »

Assaji wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:00 am Yes, this incessant flood clearly doesn't belong in the Pāli forum of the Theravāda Buddhist Doctrine section, and I sincerely hope that admins will handle this appropriately.
The topic can be moved to Early Buddhism forum.

The bottom line is if a certain individual (ekacco puriso) gets angry & deluded about Pali, this is obviously a form of "bhava". Therefore, the questions is: "what type of bhava is it?"

Thag 19.1 says:
Incorporeal mind, far-traveler, lone-wanderer:
Arūpa dūraṅgama ekacāri,

I won’t do your bidding any more.
Na te karissaṁ vacanaṁ idānihaṁ;

Sensual pleasures are suffering, painful and very dangerous;
Dukkhā hi kāmā kaṭukā mahabbhayā,

I’ll wander with my mind focused only on quenching.
Nibbānamevābhimano carissaṁ.

https://suttacentral.net/thag19.1/en/sujato
It appears the self-view created from Pali self-righteousness is "arupa bhava". :smile:
Assaji wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:00 am Yes, this incessant flood clearly doesn't belong in the Pāli forum of the Theravāda Buddhist Doctrine section, and I sincerely hope that admins will handle this appropriately.
Assaji. "Bhava" does not appear to mean a "life span". Sorry but the Buddha did not appear to teach what you appear to believe. MN 38 clearly says bhava ceases when the eye sees the form:
On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being (bhava), cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.
MN 44 clearly says bhava leads to "self-identification":
The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."
AN 3.74 clearly says "bhava" is consciousness "established" in a sense object:
Avijjānīvaraṇānaṁ sattānaṁ taṇhāsaṁyojanānaṁ hīnāya dhātuyā viññāṇaṁ patiṭṭhitaṁ evaṁ āyatiṁ punabbhavābhinibbatti hoti

Beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, in lower element, consciousness is established (patiṭṭhita). That is how future production of new becoming exists.

AN 3.76
SN 22.53 clearly says such "patiṭṭhita" can cease while still alive:
the support is cut off, and there is no foundation for consciousness.

Rāgassa pahānā vocchijjatārammaṇaṁ patiṭṭhā viññāṇassa na hoti.

Since that consciousness does not become established and does not grow, with no power to regenerate, it is freed.

Tadappatiṭṭhitaṁ viññāṇaṁ avirūḷhaṁ anabhisaṅkhacca vimuttaṁ.

Being free, it’s stable. Being stable, it’s content. Being content, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.

Vimuttattā ṭhitaṁ. Ṭhitattā santusitaṁ. Santusitattā na paritassati. Aparitassaṁ paccattaññeva parinibbāyati.
:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:04 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by mjaviem »

How are the form and the formless elements different from the sensual element is my question. As this is a free forum, I would guess that for example in a bar of chocolate, additionally to its form, there is a sensual element. If we have eaten already and are full but are tempted by this sensual element and we are determined to get it and savor it, we would have become someone in the sensual realm, even perhaps some sort of a thief or a violent prone person with the mission of getting the chocolate.

A non-sensual becoming must have a desire that is not sensual. I wonder if the desire to live alone or to abandon greed, lust, and ill-will could lead to a non-sensual becoming.

And about hearing or reading the message of a good reputation or a message that we dislike I'm not sure, the text and the sound are sense objects but are dead until we make meaning out of them so our liking or disliking is on the meaning and not on the sense object. This is a good topic to follow, I hope people post their understanding.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by Coëmgenu »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:46 amThe bottom line is if a certain individual (ekacco puriso) gets angry & deluded about Pali, this is obviously a form of "bhava". Therefore, the questions is: "what type of bhava is it?"
No, it's not. This is just you stating your thesis over and over again, like I pointed out before. The scripture you have quoted about the cessation of bhāva is not about anger and delusion over Pāli grammer, nor is it about anger and delusion ending because bhāva is those things. It's about the process of liberation, something far too deep for you to grasp.

It's not about your imagined angry and self-righteous Pāli scholar, who is someone you made up. This doesn't belong in Early Buddhism either, since it's just DooDoot's wild speculations that are unsupported by the Pāli Canon, the Āgamasūtras, and similarly unsupported by any academy studying these matters in-depth.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:16 am
DooDoot wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:46 amThe bottom line is if a certain individual (ekacco puriso) gets angry & deluded about Pali, this is obviously a form of "bhava". Therefore, the questions is: "what type of bhava is it?"
No, it's not. This is just you stating your thesis over and over again, like I pointed out before. The scripture you have quoted about the cessation of bhāva is not about anger and delusion over Pāli grammer, nor is it about anger and delusion ending because bhāva is those things. It's about the process of liberation, something far too deep for you to grasp.

It's not about your imagined angry and self-righteous Pāli scholar, who is someone you made up. This doesn't belong in Early Buddhism either, since it's just DooDoot's wild speculations that are unsupported by the Pāli Canon, the Āgamasūtras, and similarly unsupported by any academy studying these matters in-depth.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by Coëmgenu »

This is the perfect topic for "personal experience," since it constitutes DooDoot's personal theories which are no-doubt informed by personal experience, practice, etc., however DooDoot likes to frame his theories. The thread is not, however, an inquiry into the usage of bhāva, rūpabhāva, or arūpabhāva in the EBTs, at least not in its present state. It takes more than assertion to prove a point, particularly one as outlandish as the OP's hypothesis of new meanings for rūpabhava, arūpabhava, as well as bhava/bhāva in general.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by Pulsar »

DooDoot wrote
The teaching of Dependent Origination contains the terms "kamabhava", rupabhava" & "arupabhava", which respectively mean "sensual becoming", "material/form becoming" and "immaterial/formless becoming".
Dearest DD, In which sutta on dependent origination do you find "arupabhava"? (except in the corruptions of DN 15).
I do not find "arupabhava" mentioned in SN 12.10, SN 12.11, SN 12.12, SN 12.14, SN 12.15, SN 12.17 nor in SN 12.20. Yet they all refer to Dependent Origination.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by DooDoot »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:51 pm Dearest DD, In which sutta on dependent origination do you find "arupabhava"? (except in the corruptions of DN 15).
I do not find "arupabhava" mentioned in...
SN 12.2; MN 9
And what is continued existence?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, bhavo?

There are these three states of existence.
Tayome, bhikkhave, bhavā—

Existence in the sensual realm, the realm of luminous form, and the formless realm.
kāmabhavo, rūpabhavo, arūpabhavo.

This is called continued existence.
Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, bhavo.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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