The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

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DooDoot
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The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by DooDoot »

Dear Pali forum

The teaching of Dependent Origination contains the terms "kamabhava", rupabhava" & "arupabhava", which respectively mean "sensual becoming", "material/form becoming" and "immaterial/formless becoming".

"Sensuality" is defined in the suttas as relating to the five physical sense bases, as follows:
There are these five kinds of sensual stimulation.
Pañcime, mahānāma, kāmaguṇā.

What five?
Katame pañca?

Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.
Cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā;

Sounds known by the ear …
sotaviññeyyā saddā …pe…

Smells known by the nose …
ghānaviññeyyā gandhā …

Tastes known by the tongue …
jivhāviññeyyā rasā …

Touches known by the body that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.
kāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā—

These are the five kinds of sensual stimulation.
ime kho, mahānāma, pañca kāmaguṇā.

https://suttacentral.net/mn14/en/sujato
When I first learned above the above, I recall learning:

1. Sensuality refers to pleasure from the five physical senses bases.

2. Materiality refers not only to rupa jhana but also refers to any material possession, such as being attached to money or housing. For example, people gain pleasure from having money, not because it is a "sensual pleasure", but because it makes them feel secure.

3. Immateriality refers not only the arupa jhana but also refers to immaterial cravings & attachments such as fame, honor, reputation, etc.

Are there any Suttas or Pali commentary that support the idea 'rupa' can refer to literal 'material objects' (such as money & houses) and 'arupa' can refer to fame, honor, reputation, etc?

Thanks :thanks:
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SarathW
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by SarathW »

Are there any Suttas or Pali commentary that support the idea 'rupa' can refer to literal 'material objects' (such as money & houses) and 'arupa' can refer to fame, honor, reputation, etc?
I have never come across this interpretation in my reading or listening to Dhamma talks.
Ten worldly conditions can't be Rupa or Arupabhava as they all related to the Kama realm.
Sorry for jumping in as I do not have any Pali experience.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

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SarathW wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:27 am I have never come across this interpretation in my reading or listening to Dhamma talks.
Sorry for jumping in as I do not have any Pali experience.
:focus:
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by asahi »

The above hypothesis is imaginary . Unsupported by suttas .
Rupa jhana led to rupa becoming , if rupa is material objects' (such as money & houses) , thats means rupa jhana led to money and houses .
Arupa jhana led to arupa becoming .
Can there be arupa becoming without first developing arupa jhana ? No .
Surely arupa jhana cannot lead to fame, honor, reputation !


:rolleye:
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

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asahi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:02 am The above hypothesis is imaginary . Unsupported by suttas .
Rupa jhana led to rupa becoming , if rupa is material objects' (such as money & houses) , thats means rupa jhana led to money and houses .
Arupa jhana led to arupa becoming .
Can there be arupa becoming without first developing arupa jhana ? No .
Surely arupa jhana cannot lead to fame, honor, reputation !


:rolleye:
:focus:
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

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DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:15 am Are there any Suttas or Pali commentary that support the idea 'rupa' can refer to literal 'material objects' (such as money & houses) and 'arupa' can refer to fame, honor, reputation, etc?
Both rūpa and and arūpa, from rūpabhava and arūpabhava, and in the context of Dependent Origination, are terms applied to animate things, rather than inanimate objects. An inanimate object such as a chair cannot "come into existence" (it came about by carving a piece of a tree, after all). Even if you were to say "it comes into existence," the root cause of becoming, based on Dependent Origination, are things like ignorance (avijjā) and kamma-formations (saṅkhārā), which a chair or rock obviously can't experience.

(As for presenting passages, likely no one could find and present you a Sutta or commentarial passage describing rūpa or arūpa in the context of Dependent Origination as being money, a house, etc. However, not being able to present such a passage proves little. Asking "are there any Suttas that support the meaning of samādhi meaning 'painting'" and not finding such a passage doesn't say anything about "samādhi," other than that it likely doesn't mean "painting.")
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

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samseva wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:27 am Both rūpa and and arūpa, from rūpabhava and arūpabhava, and in the context of Dependent Origination, are terms applied to animate things, rather than inanimate objects. An inanimate object such as a chair cannot "come into existence"...
Ajahn Chah said:
For example, suppose we had an orchard of apple trees that we were particularly fond of. That's a bhava for us if we don't reflect with wisdom. How so? Suppose our orchard contained a hundred or a thousand apple trees... it doesn't really matter what kind of trees they are, just so long as we consider them to be ''our own'' trees... then we are going to be ''born'' as a ''worm'' in every single one of those trees. We bore into every one, even though our human body is still back there in the house, we send out ''tentacles'' into every one of those trees.

Now, how do we know that it's a bhava? It's a bhava (sphere of existence) because of our clinging to the idea that those trees are our own, that that orchard is our own. If someone were to take an ax and cut one of the trees down, the owner over there in the house ''dies'' along with the tree. He gets furious, and has to go and set things right, to fight and maybe even kill over it. That quarreling is the ''birth.'' The ''sphere of birth'' is the orchard of trees that we cling to as our own. We are ''born'' right at the point where we consider them to be our own, born from that bhava. Even if we had a thousand apple trees, if someone were to cut down just one it'd be like cutting the owner down.

https://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Flood_Sensuality1.php
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by samseva »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:54 am [...]
Even though Ajahn Chah uses a tree as a metaphor, it doesn't mean trees are conscious. Trees don't have viññāṇa, āyatana, phassa, vedanā, and so on, as the links in Dependent Origination/paṭiccasamuppāda.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by mjaviem »

samseva wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:57 am
DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:54 am [...]
Even though Ajahn Chah uses a tree as a metaphor, it doesn't mean trees are conscious. Trees don't have viññāṇa, āyatana, phassa, vedanā, and so on, as in Dependent Origination/paṭiccasamuppāda.
Right but the point is the gardener made of it more than just a tree, just growing wood, leaves and apples. To him there's something beyond its elements, this tree is his, like a hand, if someone would cut his hand off he would get mad. The same with the tree. The tree and the hand are form yet there is still consciousness and I and mine making.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

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samseva wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:57 am Even though Ajahn Chah uses a tree as a metaphor, it doesn't mean trees are conscious. Trees don't have viññāṇa, āyatana, phassa, vedanā, and so on, as the links in Dependent Origination/paṭiccasamuppāda.
In the suttas, "bhava" is a mental state ("asava"), such as attachment to form, as follows:
“If there were no kamma ripening in the form-property, would form-becoming be discerned?”

“No, lord.”

The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a middling property.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.76/en/thanissaro
"Bhava" appears to mean consciousness established in/attached to form, such as when Ajahn Chah said the man is attached to the apple trees as "mine".
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

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asahi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:02 am The above hypothesis is imaginary . Unsupported by suttas .
Have u read the Suttas? :shrug:
asahi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:02 amRupa jhana led to rupa becoming , if rupa is material objects' (such as money & houses) , thats means rupa jhana led to money and houses .
There are obviously different types of "rupa", such as "rupa" meaning the "physical body" and "rupa" meaning objects seen by the eye sense organ.
asahi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:02 amSurely arupa jhana cannot lead to fame, honor, reputation !
Appears irrelevant, similar to above, where there are different types of rupa. Possibly, there are different types of arupa. :shrug:
asahi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:02 amArupa jhana led to arupa becoming . Can there be arupa becoming without first developing arupa jhana ? No .
The suttas contain the following verses, which appear to not be above arupa jhana:

* DN 9: “Sir, I believe in a non-physical self which is made of perception.”

* MN 102: "Now, the ascetics and brahmins who assert a self that is... formless... "

* MN 21: "Because the sky is formless and invisible".

The verse unambiguous does not refer to arupa jhana:
Incorporeal mind, far-traveler, lone-wanderer:
Arūpa dūraṅgama ekacāri,

I won’t do your bidding any more.
Na te karissaṁ vacanaṁ idānihaṁ;

Sensual pleasures are suffering, painful and very dangerous;
Dukkhā hi kāmā kaṭukā mahabbhayā,

I’ll wander with my mind focused only on quenching.
Nibbānamevābhimano carissaṁ.

https://suttacentral.net/thag19.1/en/sujato
The above verse appears the same as the following Dhammapada verse:
The mind travels far, wandering alone;
Dūraṅgamaṁ ekacaraṁ,

incorporeal, it hides in a cave.
asarīraṁ guhāsayaṁ;

Those who will restrain the mind
Ye cittaṁ saṁyamissanti,

are freed from Māra’s bonds.
mokkhanti mārabandhanā.

https://suttacentral.net/dhp33-43/en/sujato
:reading:
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by samseva »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:27 am In the suttas, "bhava" is a mental state ("asava"), such as attachment to form, as follows:
“If there were no kamma ripening in the form-property, would form-becoming be discerned?”

“No, lord.”

The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a middling property.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.76/en/thanissaro
"Bhava" appears to mean consciousness established in/attached to form, such as when Ajahn Chah said the man is attached to the apple trees as "mine".
In the Suttas, bhava is not "a mental state," nor does asava mean a "mental state." Asava isn't in the PTS dictionary. If you mean āsava, then yes, any of the āsava is a mental factor—however, the meaning and definition of āsava is still not "mental state."

If you mean the compound word bhavāsava, then yes, bhava-āsava is one of the four āsava, similar to what you describe—however, you can't take the definition of bhavāsava, separate bhava from it, and then apply the definition of bhavāsava to bhava.

That's not how translation and language work—bhava has a number of different meanings, dependent on the context and, when part of a compound word, dependent on the rest of the compound word it is part of.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

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samseva wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:12 pm In the Suttas, bhava is not "a mental state," nor does asava mean a "mental state." Asava isn't in the PTS dictionary. If you mean āsava, then yes, any of the āsava is a mental factor—however, the meaning and definition of āsava is still not "mental state."
Sorry but bhava is an āsava and āsava are mental states. For example, MN 44 says bhava leads to self-identification. Or MN 121 says the experience of emptiness is without bhava but life remains. Or MN 9 says bhavāsava is included within ignorance and this obviously leads to bhavā.
samseva wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:12 pmThat's not how translation and language work...
AN 3.76 says bhava is consciousness established in a sense object due to ignorance & craving. This is on this topic of dependent origination.

:focus: :thanks:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:26 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

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DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:15 am "Sensuality" is defined in the suttas as relating to the five physical sense bases, as follows:
There are these five kinds of sensual stimulation.
Pañcime, mahānāma, kāmaguṇā.

What five?
Katame pañca?

Sights known by the eye
Cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā;

Sounds known by the ear that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.…
sotaviññeyyā saddā …pe…


https://suttacentral.net/mn14/en/sujato
Are there any Suttas or Pali commentary that support the idea 'rupa' can refer to literal 'material objects' (such as money & houses) and 'arupa' can refer to fame, honor, reputation, etc?
OK. To review:

1. Craving for good reputation, fame, honor, etc, must be a form of becoming.

Therefore, the new questions are:

1. Is attachment to money & housing, which makes a person feel secure, a type of sensual becoming; that is, attachment to forms visible by the eye?

2. Is attachment to fame & reputation, which makes an ego feel pleasure, a type of sensual becoming; that is, attachment to pleasant sounds heard by the eyes, such as compliments and no criticism?

:shrug:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by samseva »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:18 pm
samseva wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:12 pm In the Suttas, bhava is not "a mental state," nor does asava mean a "mental state." Asava isn't in the PTS dictionary. If you mean āsava, then yes, any of the āsava is a mental factor—however, the meaning and definition of āsava is still not "mental state."
Sorry but bhava is an āsava and āsava are mental states.
While bhavāsava is a mental factor or state, bhava by itself is not an āsava. How would that even be logical? To say that bhava is bhavāsava because bhavāsava has bhava in it? A wheel is a car, because a car has wheels?

And it would make no sense whatsoever for the 10th link of Dependent Origination/paṭiccasamuppāda of bhava to be "a mental state of bhavāsava"—let alone that being the condition for the 11th link of rebirth/jāti.

PTS dictionary:
PTS dictionary wrote:Bhava [cp. Sk. bhava, as philosophical term late, but as N. of a deity Vedic; of bhū, see bhavati] "becoming," (form of) re- birth, (state of) existence, a "life."
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