How is aging & death impermanent?

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DooDoot
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How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by DooDoot »

Dear forum

SN 12.20 and the Paṭisambhidāmagga say aging & death are impermanent.

What does this mean?

Please discuss. Thanks :thanks:
And what, bhikkhus, are the dependently arisen phenomena? Aging-and-death, bhikkhus, is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, vanishing, fading away, and cessation.

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un8-
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by un8- »

It means the condition for it can be removed. If it wasn't Impermanent you would not be able to remove or avoid the condition that causes it, which is birth.

If you are not born, you can't die
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
SarathW
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by SarathW »

I think all birth, aging, and death are impermanent.
:shrug:
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pegembara
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by pegembara »

At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, I will teach you dependent origination and dependently arisen phenomena. Listen and attend closely, I will speak.”

“Yes, venerable sir,” those bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“And what, bhikkhus, is dependent origination? ‘With birth as condition, aging-and-death comes to be’: whether there is an arising of Tathagatas or no arising of Tathagatas, that element still persists, the stableness of the Dhamma, the fixed course of the Dhamma, specific conditionality. A Tathagata awakens to this and breaks through to it. Having done so, he explains it, teaches it, proclaims it, establishes it, discloses it, analyses it, elucidates it. And he says: ‘See! With birth as condition, bhikkhus, aging-and-death.’

“‘With existence as condition, birth’ … ‘With clinging as condition, existence’
If you were born, then you will face aging and death. That is the reality with or without the teachings.
Some conservatives in the US believe that life/existence begins with the heartbeat and seek to reverse the rules for abortion. In other words, you were "born" or came into existence with the first heartbeat. So who is right?
“When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple has clearly seen with correct wisdom as it really is this dependent origination and these dependently arisen phenomena, it is impossible that he will run back into the past, thinking: ‘Did I exist in the past? Did I not exist in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become in the past?’
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
SarathW
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by SarathW »

Some conservatives in the US believe that life/existence begins with the heartbeat and seek to reverse the rules for abortion. In other words, you were "born" or came into existence with the first heartbeat. So who is right?
No heartbeat no consciousness?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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mjaviem
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by mjaviem »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:42 am ...
What does this mean?
...
I always thought death was permanent as in permanently dead or as in dead dead. My grandmother is been dead for long and she is going to keep like this as far as I know.

Could this mean rebirth? If you are no longer dead... But then how aging would stop.

I can understand the impermanence of the process of growing old, brokenness of teeth, greyness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of vitality, degeneration of the faculities. This is not forever, this is only until one is dead. But here we are back to square one.

Perhaps it means the process of dying is impermanent? The passing away, perishing, breakup, disappearance, mortality, death, completion of time, the breakup of the aggregates, the laying down of the carcass can't last forever?

The Buddha says aging&death is conditioned, dependently arisen, but dependent on what. Is it dependent on conceiving beings? Then aging and death ceases as soon as the conception of the being ceases. He says it depends on birth and up until ignorance so aging and death can only hold as long as there is ignorance down to birth.

What does it mean birth is impermanent?
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Ontheway
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by Ontheway »

Just logic...

You can't forever be old and keep ageing. It will always end in death. Therefore, ageing isn't permanent.

Death is not the final end too. For if the person haven't reach Arahantship, he/she will undergo Birth again. So, death isn't permanent too.

:candle:
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un8-
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by un8- »

mjaviem wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:14 am
The Buddha says aging&death is conditioned, dependently arisen, but dependent on what. Is it dependent on conceiving beings?
Yes. To the body, like the eyes, there is no discernment, it's simply just colours. It's the mind that cognizes concepts like birth and death. It's the mind that says "this group of colours is a person who I love, and when this group of colours disappears I am sad"

Identity view takes one group of colours and says it's "mine" and whatever is mine causes pain when it is no longer mine without my permission.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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mjaviem
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by mjaviem »

Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:00 pm Just logic...

You can't forever be old and keep ageing. It will always end in death. Therefore, ageing isn't permanent.

Death is not the final end too. For if the person haven't reach Arahantship, he/she will undergo Birth again. So, death isn't permanent too.

:candle:
Do you mean ageing & death ceases with birth? Does the Buddha by "ageing & death is impermanent" mean there's always birth coming to the rescue? I don't see birth to be the solution to ageing and death because what birth brings is ageing and death and suffering.

Is birth permanent?
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Nicolas
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by Nicolas »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:42 am [...]
un8- wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:58 am It means the condition for it can be removed. If it wasn't Impermanent you would not be able to remove or avoid the condition that causes it, which is birth.

If you are not born, you can't die
:goodpost:
Paṭiccasamuppāda Sutta (SN 12.1) wrote: with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease
Ontheway
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by Ontheway »

mjaviem wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:53 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:00 pm Just logic...

You can't forever be old and keep ageing. It will always end in death. Therefore, ageing isn't permanent.

Death is not the final end too. For if the person haven't reach Arahantship, he/she will undergo Birth again. So, death isn't permanent too.

:candle:
Do you mean ageing & death ceases with birth? Does the Buddha by "ageing & death is impermanent" mean there's always birth coming to the rescue? I don't see birth to be the solution to ageing and death because what birth brings is ageing and death and suffering.

Is birth permanent?
Birth is impermanent too. Birth is just a process. Once the baby comes out, there the baby will grow up, mature and ageing. How that can be permanent?

....-> Death -> Birth -> ageing -> Death -> Birth -> ageing -> Death -> Birth-> Ageing .... continues again and again....No begining, no end, keep changing.

This is why Nibbana is important, to stop the cycle of Birth and Death.
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Last edited by Ontheway on Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

Elsewhere (jara sutta) john d ireland calls the continually changing nature of aging and death as a state of constant separation.

thanissaro bikkhu uses the following : People grieve for what they see as mine, for nothing possessed is constant, nothing is constantly possessed. Seeing this separation simply as it is, one shouldn't follow the household life.

Also "... Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, massaged the Blessed One's limbs with his hand and said, "It's amazing, lord. It's astounding, how the Blessed One's complexion is no longer so clear & bright; his limbs are flabby & wrinkled; his back, bent forward; there's a discernible change in his faculties — the faculty of the eye, the faculty of the ear, the faculty of the nose, the faculty of the tongue, the faculty of the body."

"That's the way it is, Ananda. When young, one is subject to aging; when healthy, subject to illness; when alive, subject to death. ..."
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mjaviem
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by mjaviem »

Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:58 pm ...
Birth is impermanent too. Birth is just a process. Once the baby comes out, there the baby will grow up, mature and ageing. How that can be permanent?

....-> Death -> Birth -> ageing -> Death -> Birth -> ageing -> Death -> Birth-> Ageing .... continues again and again....No begining, no end, keep changing.

This is why Nibbana is important, to stop the cycle of Birth and Death.
So you mean there is the arising of birth and the ceasing of birth, then it comes the arising of ageing and the ceasing of ageing, then it comes the arising of death and the ceasing of death, then it comes the arising of birth, and so on.

Why do you say ageing and death is impermanent? Is it because of birth that puts an end to death or is it because there will be an escape to the cycle one day? Or you mean the process of dying instead of death?

Why do you say birth is impermanent? Is it because of the ageing process starts or is it because of an escape to the cycle one day? Or you mean the process of getting out of the womb?
sunnat wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:11 pm ...
"That's the way it is, Ananda. When young, one is subject to aging; when healthy, subject to illness; when alive, subject to death. ..."
I wonder when one is subject to birth.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by Coëmgenu »

One of the inversions is "taking impermanence as permanence." Is each instance of "something aging" the same as before? No. Because each instance of aging is temporally and conditionally distinct. For instance, the skin becoming less young-looking is the gradual deterioration of the DNA that allows the skin cells to divide "properly." Each skin cell malfunction is separate.

When cells' DNA becomes significantly deteriorated due to age, cancer is the result.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by Coëmgenu »

The gradual deterioration of the DNA in cells is the reason why the cloned sheep Dolly died early and had many health complications. Though "Dolly" was young, the cells used to produce her were not. It was "aged DNA," thus deteriorated DNA. If we have any biologists here and I've made a mistake, please correct me. AFAIK, this is true information.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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