Now you are just digging a massive hole. Strange, for someone who claims to be infallible. As if we needed more evidence that at your core, you really have no idea what you are talking about.
The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas
Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas
In case you forgot, this is what you are responding to:
It was a good strategy to try to divert the conversation, but what you wrote, in truth, has nothing to do with what I wrote or what I responded to from you.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:16 pmDooDoot wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:25 amWhat is the great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas?
The above appears to clearly show why the above is not "Early Buddhism" and why the below appears to be false speech:At one time, the Buddha was staying in the cow-herding community of the Kurus.
At that time, the Buddha said to the monks:
This sort of nonsense doesn't belong in this subforum.
In particular, this:...is the single most uninformed, profoundly uneducated, and deeply clueless thing I've seen written on the forum lately. It is a heartening back to the disproved, discredited, theory of DooDoot that he tried to expound and defend, and failed at doing so, in the "paṭiccasamuppāda and idappaccayatā" thread.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas
Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:33 pm There is an interesting āgama which talk of dharmas being empty that I thought I would share
https://suttacentral.net/sa297/en/choongAt one time, the Buddha was staying in the cow-herding community of the Kurus.
At that time, the Buddha said to the monks: “I will teach you the dharma, which is good in its beginning, middle, and end; which is of good meaning and good flavour, entirely pure, pure for the noble life, namely: the great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas.
“Listen attentively, consider well, and I will teach you.
“What is the great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas? It is this: Because this exists, that exists; because this arises, that arises. That is to say: Conditioned by ignorance, activities arise; because of activities, consciousness arises, and so on …, and thus arises this whole mass of suffering.
“Regarding the statement conditioned by birth, aging-and-death arises, someone may ask: Who is it that ages-and-dies? To whom does aging-and-death belong?
“And he may answer: It is the self that ages-and-dies. Aging-and-death belongs to the self; aging-and-death is the self.
«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?
They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»
- Snp 4.5 -
Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas
Choong Mun-keat also mentioned this text in pp 36-7 in this book, The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism.
https://www.academia.edu/38943344/The_N ... y_Buddhism
and in this book, pp. 196-8, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism.
https://www.academia.edu/12359515/The_F ... ukta-agama
Last edited by thomaslaw on Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas
Thank you toothomaslaw wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:20 amChoong Mun-keat also mentioned this text in pp 36-7 in this book, The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism.
https://www.academia.edu/38943344/The_N ... y_Buddhism
and in this book, pp. 197-8, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism.
https://www.academia.edu/12359515/The_F ... ukta-agama
«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?
They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»
- Snp 4.5 -
Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas
The fetter of self-view is abandoned at stream-entry. Once-returners and non-returners still experience dukkha—meaning what you said above is false.
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Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas
I think it works if you take a broader meaning of self-view, to include the conceit fetter. Dukkha as the clinging aggregates.samseva wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:17 amThe fetter of self-view is abandoned at stream-entry. Once-returners and non-returners still experience dukkha—meaning what you said above is false.
Thinking for example of how the Bahiya Sutta describes the end of suffering: "When there is no you there.."
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas
I can't get access to Sutta Central to check the Pali, but it would be interesting to know what Pali term is translated as "self" in the final paragraph of the passage above.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:33 pm There is an interesting āgama which talk of dharmas being empty that I thought I would share
https://suttacentral.net/sa297/en/choongAt one time, the Buddha was staying in the cow-herding community of the Kurus.
At that time, the Buddha said to the monks: “I will teach you the dharma, which is good in its beginning, middle, and end; which is of good meaning and good flavour, entirely pure, pure for the noble life, namely: the great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas.
“Listen attentively, consider well, and I will teach you.
“What is the great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas? It is this: Because this exists, that exists; because this arises, that arises. That is to say: Conditioned by ignorance, activities arise; because of activities, consciousness arises, and so on …, and thus arises this whole mass of suffering.
“Regarding the statement conditioned by birth, aging-and-death arises, someone may ask: Who is it that ages-and-dies? To whom does aging-and-death belong?
“And he may answer: It is the self that ages-and-dies. Aging-and-death belongs to the self; aging-and-death is the self.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas
For your information :
Choong translation appear questionable .
I will try to translate .
「緣生老死者,若有問言:『彼誰老死?老死屬誰?』彼則答言:『我即老死,今老死屬我,老死是我。』所言:『命即是身。』或言:『命異身異。』
As aging and death being condition by birth , if being question (by someone) , "who is it get to age and die ? aging and death belongs to whom ?" ; one may thus answer : "it is me that age and die , aging and death belongs to me , aging and death is me ." ; one may say : "soul is the same as the body" or one may say "soul is different thing and body is different thing" .
「若復問言:『誰是行?行屬誰?』彼則答言:『行則是我,行是我所。』彼如是:『命即是身。』或言:『命異身異。』
If again being question (by someone) ,
"who is sankhara ? sankhara belongs to whom ?" , thus one may answer :
"sankhara is me , sankhara belongs to me ."
Thus as such one may say "soul is the same as the body" , or one may say "soul is different thing and body is different thing" .
Choong translation appear questionable .
I will try to translate .
「緣生老死者,若有問言:『彼誰老死?老死屬誰?』彼則答言:『我即老死,今老死屬我,老死是我。』所言:『命即是身。』或言:『命異身異。』
As aging and death being condition by birth , if being question (by someone) , "who is it get to age and die ? aging and death belongs to whom ?" ; one may thus answer : "it is me that age and die , aging and death belongs to me , aging and death is me ." ; one may say : "soul is the same as the body" or one may say "soul is different thing and body is different thing" .
「若復問言:『誰是行?行屬誰?』彼則答言:『行則是我,行是我所。』彼如是:『命即是身。』或言:『命異身異。』
If again being question (by someone) ,
"who is sankhara ? sankhara belongs to whom ?" , thus one may answer :
"sankhara is me , sankhara belongs to me ."
Thus as such one may say "soul is the same as the body" , or one may say "soul is different thing and body is different thing" .
No bashing No gossiping
Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas
The Pali term is jīva (SN12.35-6), which means life (soul/self, 命 jīva). See p. 196 in Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:26 am I can't get access to Sutta Central to check the Pali, but it would be interesting to know what Pali term is translated as "self" in the final paragraph of the passage above.