The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Ceisiwr
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The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas

Post by Ceisiwr »

There is an interesting āgama which talk of dharmas being empty that I thought I would share
At one time, the Buddha was staying in the cow-herding community of the Kurus.

At that time, the Buddha said to the monks: “I will teach you the dharma, which is good in its beginning, middle, and end; which is of good meaning and good flavour, entirely pure, pure for the noble life, namely: the great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas.

“Listen attentively, consider well, and I will teach you.

“What is the great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas? It is this: Because this exists, that exists; because this arises, that arises. That is to say: Conditioned by ignorance, activities arise; because of activities, consciousness arises, and so on …, and thus arises this whole mass of suffering.

“Regarding the statement conditioned by birth, aging-and-death arises, someone may ask: Who is it that ages-and-dies? To whom does aging-and-death belong?

“And he may answer: It is the self that ages-and-dies. Aging-and-death belongs to the self; aging-and-death is the self.
https://suttacentral.net/sa297/en/choong
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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DooDoot
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Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:33 pm
“And he may answer: It is the self that ages-and-dies. Aging-and-death belongs to the self; aging-and-death is the self.
:bow:

The above is what the Suttas teach, namely, it is the self that ages-and-dies. However, the suttas use the term "satta" ("being"). SN 23.2 & SN 5.10 define what a "being" is. :ugeek:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:08 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:33 pm
“And he may answer: It is the self that ages-and-dies. Aging-and-death belongs to the self; aging-and-death is the self.
:bow:

The above is what the Suttas teach, namely, it is the self that ages-and-dies. However, the suttas use the term "satta" ("being"). SN 23.2 & SN 5.10 define what a "being" is. :ugeek:
You do realise that is the wrong answer?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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DooDoot
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Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:54 pm You do realise that is the wrong answer?
Sorry what whatever i write is correct. Regardless, since no question has been asked on this topic, there appears no such thing as a right or wrong "answer" here. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:33 pm
“What is the great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas? It is this: Because this exists, that exists; because this arises, that arises. That is to say: Conditioned by ignorance, activities arise; because of activities, consciousness arises, and so on …, and thus arises this whole mass of suffering.
I cannot recall any Sutta that directly expresses the above (Mahayana type thinking); namely, a Sutta that says Dependent Origination expresses Emptiness (Sunnata). Since Sunnata is the absence is self and Dependent Origination is about the origination of "self"; while Dependent Origination shows there is no real self, I cannot recall the Suttas discussing Emptiness in this way. Possibly SN 12.12 is the closest but SN 12.2 stops the "who" questions at attachment and says attachment is the condition for self-becoming. SN 12.17 may also be close but SN 12.17 does not refer to Emptiness. :smile:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:46 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:54 pm You do realise that is the wrong answer?
Sorry what whatever i write is correct. Regardless, since no question has been asked on this topic, there appears no such thing as a right or wrong "answer" here. :smile:
According to the agama, what you approved of is the wrong way to think of it.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:33 pm i thought I would share
Thank you Ceisiwr. Your sharings of recent times (where you appear to develop total conviction in non-sutta doctrines without thoroughly examining those doctrines) has been extremely valuable to me. Its easy to see how Buddhism evolved from Sutta, to Paṭisambhidāmagga, to Abhidhamma, to Jataka, to Mahayana, to Agama, to Visuddhimagga, etc. Its all there. Thank you again for your valuable offerings about the historic dependent origination from ignorance. :bow:
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asahi
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Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas

Post by asahi »

FYI

Parallel that are equivalent to SN12.1 & SN12.2 about dependent arising that are of accurate version would be T124 (translated by Ven Xuan Zang) and SA298 .


https://suttacentral.net/sa298/lzh/taisho

https://suttacentral.net/t124/lzh/taisho
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Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas

Post by thomaslaw »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:19 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:30 am According to the agama, what you approved of is the wrong way to think of it.
Not at all. Dependent origination explains the arising of dukkha in a puthujjana. Dependent origination is the wrong path. Dependent origination is unrelated to enlightenment; apart from being something abandoned by enlightenment. Dependent origination is not Sunnata; i.e., the Supreme Dhamma. Dependent origination is dukkha. Sunnata is Liberation. :smile:
Dukkha, being not real, arises by condition. When dukkha ceases, it ceases by condition. It is a result of previous action, but there is no doer (anatta). Cf. SN 12.15 = SA 301, the middle way of Arising by Causal Condition.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas

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DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:19 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:30 am According to the agama, what you approved of is the wrong way to think of it.
Not at all. Dependent origination explains the arising of dukkha in a puthujjana. Dependent origination is the wrong path. Dependent origination is unrelated to enlightenment; apart from being something abandoned by enlightenment. Dependent origination is not Sunnata; i.e., the Supreme Dhamma. Dependent origination is dukkha. Sunnata is Liberation. :smile:
This has nothing to do with your original comment. You approved of something the text was criticising.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas

Post by DooDoot »

thomaslaw wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:52 am Dukkha, being not real...
SN 12.17 appears to say dukkha is real.
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Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas

Post by Coëmgenu »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:25 am
What is the great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas?
The above appears to clearly show why the above is not "Early Buddhism" and why the below appears to be false speech:
At one time, the Buddha was staying in the cow-herding community of the Kurus.

At that time, the Buddha said to the monks:
This sort of nonsense doesn't belong in this subforum.

In particular, this:
DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:19 amDependent origination is unrelated to enlightenment; apart from being something abandoned by enlightenment.
...is the single most uninformed, profoundly uneducated, and deeply clueless thing I've seen written on the forum lately. It is a heartening back to the disproved, discredited, theory of DooDoot that he tried to expound and defend, and failed at doing so, in the "paṭiccasamuppāda and idappaccayatā" thread.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:52 am This has nothing to do with your original comment. You approved of something the text was criticising.
Unsubstantiated. Regardless, in actuality, it is the self that dies. That is why the suttas don't say a Arahant dies. :ugeek:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:16 pm This sort of nonsense doesn't belong in this subforum.
It is the above that is nonsense because, as i posted, an equivalent does not appear to exist in the suttas. If the suttas say dependent origination is emptiness then you should quote the sutta. In other words, put up or shut up. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The great discourse on the emptiness of dharmas

Post by DooDoot »

thomaslaw wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:52 am It is a result of previous action, but there is no doer (anatta).
Dukkha (as suffering) arises due to self-view. There is no dukkha without self-view. If dukkha did not arise from self-view, the Buddha would not have taught to give up self-view.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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