Nibbāna

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Ceisiwr
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Nibbāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

Nibbāna as a concept obviously pre-dated the Buddha, as other ascetics used the term. In one sutta we are told a hedonist believes that when you satisfy the senses then this is nibbāna, whilst in DN 1 some ascetics claims that the Jhānas are nibbāna. What thought does it actually mean? It seems to mean something like happiness or peace. Does anyone know of any papers which explores this topic?
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sphairos
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Re: Nibbāna

Post by sphairos »

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/ni ... 7AD1DBCB26

Chapters 1, 2.

Philological treatment in the Ch. 2.

Also there was a paper by T.W. Rhys Davids about 110 years ago in the Journal of PTS, but I forget in which exactly, you can browse the issues.

It's something about "study of a few Pāli words".
Last edited by sphairos on Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mr. Seek
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Re: Nibbāna

Post by Mr. Seek »

Thanissaro's explanations for nibbana I find sufficient.

You're assuming that those quotes are real, not made up by Buddhists who at one point in time forgot what jhana, nibbana, etc., were all about.

If they're real quotes, they're probably just expositions. The same way Buddhists, for whatever reason, use words like brahmachariya, samma, samadhi, etc.

G. Polak discusses in Reexamining Jhana how all those jhana quotes in DN 1 are likely a later addition and a misinterpretation of what jhana really is.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Nibbāna

Post by Coëmgenu »

Not only does belief in a "Nibbāna" potentially predate Buddhism, belief in "the Buddhas" predates Buddhism. In the EBTs, for instance, when the Buddha identifies himself as a Buddha and a Tathāgata, people don't go "what's that?" That IMO is an important overlooked background detail of the earliest Buddhist literature. The Buddha's society is depicted as more or less 1) knowing that there are "Buddhas" and 2) knowing at least vaguely what a "Buddha" is.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Nibbāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:06 pm Thanissaro's explanations for nibbana I find sufficient.

You're assuming that those quotes are real, not made up by Buddhists who at one point in time forgot what jhana, nibbana, etc., were all about.
The descriptions of Jhana are shared amongst the early schools, so they are pre-schism and highly early. Within 100 years of his death. If it was all forgotten by 1st and 2nd generation disciples we may as well all stop practicing now.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Nibbāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:10 pm Not only does "Nibbāna" predate Buddhism, belief in "the Buddhas" predates Buddhism. In the EBTs, for instance, when the Buddha identifies himself as a Buddha and a Tathāgata, people don't go "what's that?" That IMO is an important overlooked background detail of the earliest Buddhist literature. The Buddha's society is depicted as more or less 1) knowing that there are "Buddhas" and 2) knowing at least vaguely what a "Buddha" is.
That’s something I hadn’t considered before. What do you think the understanding of Nibbana and tathagata was?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Nibbāna

Post by Mr. Seek »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:10 pm Not only does "Nibbāna" predate Buddhism, belief in "the Buddhas" predates Buddhism. In the EBTs, for instance, when the Buddha identifies himself as a Buddha and a Tathāgata, people don't go "what's that?" That IMO is an important overlooked background detail of the earliest Buddhist literature. The Buddha's society is depicted as more or less 1) knowing that there are "Buddhas" and 2) knowing at least vaguely what a "Buddha" is.
IMO I think it can be interpreted as the other way around too. First came Gotama the wandering ascetic, then after his teaching grew, then came all those fancy terms and phrases and myths associated with him and his followers.
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Re: Nibbāna

Post by Coëmgenu »

Probably a bunch of diverse and possibly theistic ideas. Maybe it was always the name for the über-saints of śramaṇa communities stretching way back. Point is, they know, even if they don't necessarily have the exact same lists going back to Dīpaṃkara Buddha. The specific list going back to Dīpaṃkara could have came from Gautama Buddha of course. Honestly, who knows? It's an interesting fact though.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Nibbāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:13 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:10 pm Not only does "Nibbāna" predate Buddhism, belief in "the Buddhas" predates Buddhism. In the EBTs, for instance, when the Buddha identifies himself as a Buddha and a Tathāgata, people don't go "what's that?" That IMO is an important overlooked background detail of the earliest Buddhist literature. The Buddha's society is depicted as more or less 1) knowing that there are "Buddhas" and 2) knowing at least vaguely what a "Buddha" is.
IMO I think it can be interpreted as the other way around too. First came Gotama the wandering ascetic, then after his teaching grew, then came all those fancy terms and phrases and myths associated with him and his followers.
A lot of the concepts he used are pre-Buddhist.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Nibbāna

Post by Mr. Seek »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:14 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:13 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:10 pm Not only does "Nibbāna" predate Buddhism, belief in "the Buddhas" predates Buddhism. In the EBTs, for instance, when the Buddha identifies himself as a Buddha and a Tathāgata, people don't go "what's that?" That IMO is an important overlooked background detail of the earliest Buddhist literature. The Buddha's society is depicted as more or less 1) knowing that there are "Buddhas" and 2) knowing at least vaguely what a "Buddha" is.
IMO I think it can be interpreted as the other way around too. First came Gotama the wandering ascetic, then after his teaching grew, then came all those fancy terms and phrases and myths associated with him and his followers.
A lot of the concepts he used are pre-Buddhist.
Yeah, of course; he did re-interpret them a lot though. Maybe the original understanding of nibbana was just that the fire of life and suffering has been extinguished, the pile of flesh and mind, once and for all, because one has ceased to add any more fuel. The fire goes back to the fire element? Or is just extinguished ina non-existing kind of way.

Then came Gotama perhaps and, as in Upasiva's questions, used the idea of a fire gone out to illustrate the ineffable status of the sage and how he is free from all phenomena, just as a fire gone out, gone to an end that cannot be classified.

Just some thoughts. I don't know. I still think those passages are just a later forgery or expositions.
Last edited by Mr. Seek on Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nibbāna

Post by samseva »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:10 pm Not only does belief in a "Nibbāna" potentially predate Buddhism, belief in "the Buddhas" predates Buddhism. In the EBTs, for instance, when the Buddha identifies himself as a Buddha and a Tathāgata, people don't go "what's that?" That IMO is an important overlooked background detail of the earliest Buddhist literature. The Buddha's society is depicted as more or less 1) knowing that there are "Buddhas" and 2) knowing at least vaguely what a "Buddha" is.
Or that they got what Tathāgata ("one thus come/gone") means from speaking the language. And even then, a pronoun in a sentence, simply understood from the context, or just the syntactical structure of the sentence, can easily be identified as being a pronoun.

That almost everyone at the time of the Buddha understood the word Tathāgata, or the word Buddha—or simply that didn't react to it... and that they considered that word to mean "Buddha" as we Buddhists understand it are two different things.
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Re: Nibbāna

Post by Coëmgenu »

Well, so we believe. It's likely they thought that a "Buddha" or "Tathāgata" was someone who was liberated from the cycle of birth and death, but that's just a mere personal opinion. As to how they were liberated, certainly we can expect that Buddhism redefined the terms.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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samseva
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Re: Nibbāna

Post by samseva »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:27 pm Yeah, of course; he did re-interpret them a lot though.
Yes, exactly—although the Buddha didn't re-interpret the words, but rather gave them new shades meanings. The Buddha took many Pāḷi/Prakrit words and gave them their own "Buddhist" spin, so to speak.

Pāḷi/Prakrit was a shared language, and the Buddha had to communicate teachings using that language. Sure, he could have invented new words for every single Buddhist concept, but would he have been able to successfully communicate his ideas to others? People at least needed something to get a vague direction of the meaning of what the Buddha was saying.
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Re: Nibbāna

Post by samseva »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:39 pm Well, so we believe. It's likely they thought that a "Buddha" or "Tathāgata" was someone who was liberated from the cycle of birth and death, but that's just a mere personal opinion. As to how they were liberated, certainly we can expect that Buddhism redefined the terms.
Yes, there are some parts of that that are likely true—but it's rather based on historical records of teachings of Jainism and so on, not simply the words "Tathāgata" or "Buddha," and people's recorded reactions or lack of reaction to those words.

Again, identifying proper nouns is really simple, although in English it's not as apparent, as we don't use proper nouns when talking about ourselves or someone else—which is something quite common in other languages.

Me talking to you: "samseva believes Coëmgenu is partly right" makes no sense in English, but would be common and sound perfectly normal in many languages—exactly as the Buddha does in the Suttas, when he says "The Tathāgata declares that ...."
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Re: Nibbāna

Post by samseva »

samseva wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:56 pm [...]
To add: However, understanding the meaning of a proper noun isn't that important, and people likely didn't pay much attention to trying to figure out what that meaning was. Exactly like with modern names, with Germanic or Latin origins, like Eleanor, or Christian names like Johnathan, for example—people don't know, and aren't interested in the meaning itself when they meet someone (some don't even know the meaning of their name).
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