5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Coëmgenu »

So I still don't know what you meant by singling out SA 815 as a "Taisho parallel" and not SA 810.
Pulsar wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:09 pmWhen I read these two agama versions although the core is similar, there are differences in the reporting. One involves a teaching to Ananda only. The other sounds more like MN 118, involving groups of monks. Do you have any idea why? These two versions? were they transmitted by two different lineages of Mulasarvastivadins?
This is presuming that SA 810 and SA 815 are "the same sutra," no? There is no reason to presume they are the same sutra, unless we are to believe that the Buddha taught mindfulness of breathing, etc., pretty much "only once."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Pulsar
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Pulsar »

Coemgenu wrote:
This is presuming that SA 810 and SA 815 are "the same sutra," no? There is no reason to presume they are the same sutra, unless we are to believe that the Buddha taught mindfulness of breathing, etc., pretty much "only once."
The reason I asked about different lineages of transmission within Sarvastivada?
was due to what Bhikkhuni Dhammdina pointed out in
"Research into Samyukta agama"
My take is that Buddha did not teach Anapanasati one time, but that breath domes over all other meditations, that any kind of meditation related to the 8-fold path is facilitated by breath.
Breath is quite simple, just one simile is ample to bring the point home,
but some compilers make it sound like rocket science. In many suttas Buddha emphasized breath.
In fact he awoke through breath, MN 4.
even in the 4 establishments of mindfulness entry via breath is the most effective mechanism.
A brief excerpt from Dhammadina's research which shows that there were different lineages of transmission.
so possibly different versions of the same sutta????
Bhikkhuni Dhammadina:
"In a nutshell, my main basis for such a working hypothesis are the differences and similarities between the Chinese (Mūlasarvāsti- vāda) Saṃyukta-āgama (T 99) and the (Sarvāstivāda) Madhyama-āgama (T 26) studied in relation to the general patterns,
textual modules,
phraseology and structural aspects of the arrangement of the collections as evidenced by the uddānas in other Mūlasarvāstivāda and Sarvāstivāda discourse as well as Vinaya material.
These indications concord with the hypothesis that these two collections were transmitted within a Mūlasarvāstivāda and a Sarvāstivāda transmission lineage respectively. My ongoing study of the Abhidharmakośopāyikā-ṭīkā (herein- after: Upāyikā) appears to validate this hypothesis
Uddāna references and discourse quotations show that the 
Madhyama-āgama quotations exhibit more significant variations alongside agreements with the Chinese Madhyama-āgama compared to the case of the Saṃyukta-āgama quotations and the Chinese Saṃyukta-āgama.
A general pattern emerges wherein a divide is apparent, yet with clear affinities as is only to be expected of a collection transmitted by related families of reciters.
At the same time, the recension witnessed by the Saṃyukta-āgama quotations in the Upāyikā is closely similar but not identical to that of the Chinese Saṃyukta-āgama, pointing to distinct sub-groups within the greater Mūlasarvāstivāda textual world."
With love :candle:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:58 pm My take is that Buddha did not teach Anapanasati one time, but that breath domes over all other meditations, that any kind of meditation related to the 8-fold path is facilitated by breath.
Breath is quite simple, just one simile is ample to bring the point home,
but some compilers make it sound like rocket science. In many suttas Buddha emphasized breath.
In fact he awoke through breath, MN 4.
even in the 4 establishments of mindfulness entry via breath is the most effective mechanism.
A brief excerpt from Dhammadina's research which shows that there were different lineages of transmission.
so possibly different versions of the same sutta????
How does one exactly practice the blue Kasiṇa with the breath?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Pulsar
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Pulsar »

Ceisiwr wrote
How does one exactly practice the blue Kasiṇa with the breath?
Can you bring me the Sutta on the blue kasina? what is your definition of kasina?
With love :candle:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:19 pm Ceisiwr wrote
How does one exactly practice the blue Kasiṇa with the breath?
Can you bring me the Sutta on the blue kasina? what is your definition of kasina?
With love :candle:
Sure
(4) “Bhikkhus, there are these ten kasiṇa bases. What ten? One person perceives the earth kasiṇa above, below, across, undivided, measureless. One person perceives the water kasiṇa … the fire kasiṇa … the air kasiṇa … the blue kasiṇa … the yellow kasiṇa … the red kasiṇa … the white kasiṇa … the space kasiṇa … the consciousness kasiṇa above, below, across, undivided, measureless. These are the ten kasiṇa bases. Of these ten kasiṇa bases, this is the foremost, namely, when one perceives the consciousness kasiṇa above, below, across, undivided, measureless. There are beings who are percipient in such a way. But even for beings who are percipient in such a way there is alteration; there is change. Seeing this thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple becomes disenchanted with it; being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate toward the foremost, not to speak of what is inferior.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.29/en/bodhi

The blue kasiṇa is a conceptual image which fills one's perceptual field, where the mediator absorbs into it in a non-dual state.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:58 pmso possibly different versions of the same sutta????
Thank you for clarifying. I've a better idea of what you meant now.

When we speak of different recensions of "the same discourse" becoming textualized differently as "different sūtras," then IMO we are talking about the textualization of the Dharma in general, and there is no material written/documented Buddhist history from this time. It's possible that many different recitation traditions enter into one school's canon. It's possible that only one tradition of recitation enters into their canon. Not having read Ven Dhammadinna's paper, I can't comment further on the specifics of her hypothesis.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Pulsar
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Pulsar »

Ceisiwr: In the sutta you brought me, AN 10.29, Buddha seems to condemn Kasina practice, calling it an inferior practice.
But even for beings who are percipient in such a way
there is alteration; there is change. Seeing this thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple becomes disenchanted with it;
being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate toward the foremost,
not to speak of what is inferior.
Where does Buddha say it leads to non-duality? can you pl. point it out?
With love :candle:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:41 pm Ceisiwr: In the sutta you brought me, AN 10.29, Buddha seems to condemn Kasina practice, calling it an inferior practice.
But even for beings who are percipient in such a way
there is alteration; there is change. Seeing this thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple becomes disenchanted with it;
being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate toward the foremost,
not to speak of what is inferior.
Where does Buddha say it leads to non-duality? can you pl. point it out?
With love :candle:
That isn’t what it is saying. It’s saying out of each of those practices one is the best of them. It’s not saying none of them should be practiced. Regarding non-duality, it’s here
Someone perceives the meditation on universal earth above, below, across, non-dual and limitless.
Pathavīkasiṇameko sañjānāti uddhaṁ adho tiriyaṁ advayaṁ appamāṇaṁ;
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Pulsar
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Pulsar »

Ceisiwr wrote
"That isn’t what it is saying"
... a bit like when it is said Nama-rupa gives rise to consciousness, and that rupa in nama-rupa is a solid body.
Or in the 4 establishments of mindfulness, first establishment is a meditation on a solid body?
Read SN 47.42 a few more times.
What is the relevance of kasina for the realization of end of suffering?
How would you fit kasina into the 8-fold path? Is it part of right view? because it certainly is not part of right samadhi.
Right samadhi involves Samma Sati and Samma Samadhi (4 buddhist jhanas).
Samma sati teaches us how to get rid of body, feeling, perception, and mental phenomena. Arahant is devoid of these.
With love :candle:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:36 am
What is the relevance of kasina for the realization of end of suffering?
To establish Jhāna as a basis for insight into both the drawbacks of Jhāna and the kasiṇa.
How would you fit kasina into the 8-fold path? Is it part of right view? because it certainly is not part of right samadhi.
It's as much to do with Right Samādhi as foulness of the body meditation is. They aren't mentioned in the NEFP because like foulness of the body etc they are specific meditations that one takes.
Samma sati teaches us how to get rid of body, feeling, perception, and mental phenomena. Arahant is devoid of these.
Sounds like a corpse. Actually worse, because at least corpses are a body.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ontheway
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Ontheway »

Samma sati teaches us how to get rid of body, feeling, perception, and mental phenomena. Arahant is devoid of these.
Wrong.

Saccavibhanga Sutta
Katamā cāvuso, sammāsati? Idhāvuso, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ. Vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati …pe… citte cittānupassī viharati … dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ, ayaṁ vuccatāvuso: ‘sammāsati’.

"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
thomaslaw
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by thomaslaw »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:29 am
Samma sati teaches us how to get rid of body, feeling, perception, and mental phenomena. Arahant is devoid of these.
Wrong.

Saccavibhanga Sutta
Katamā cāvuso, sammāsati? Idhāvuso, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ. Vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati …pe… citte cittānupassī viharati … dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ, ayaṁ vuccatāvuso: ‘sammāsati’.

"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness.
Samma sati teaches us how to get rid of "greed & distress with reference to the world". See also SN 47.2 = SA 622:
Attachments
p. 216 in the-fundamental-teachings-of-early Buddhism_choong-mun-keat 2000.pdf
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Pulsar
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Pulsar »

Dear Ontheway: when I wrote
Samma sati teaches us how to get rid of body, feeling, perception, and mental phenomena. Arahant is devoid of these.
You responded
Wrong
Without bringing in another sutta pl. explain how you understand SN 47.42.
How do you understand the 4 establishments of Mindfulness? What is its goal? in your own words?
Is it telling us to hang onto Rupa, vedana etc?
Appreciate your input.
Regards :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Pulsar »

Ceisiwr wrote
Sounds like a corpse. Actually worse, because at least corpses are a body.
when I wrote
Samma sati teaches us how to get rid of body, feeling, perception, and mental phenomena. Arahant is devoid of these.
OK let us see...I will not bring in Phena sutta, that is too complicated for you.
Let me fetch a simple verse from Dhammapada. Surely one cannot go wrong interpreting
these simple verses.
Verse 37
Faring far, wandering alone,
bodiless,
lying in a cave, is the mind. Those who subdue it are freed from the
bond of Mara.
Do you think in the above instance, Buddha is teaching about corpses? He says bodiless???
with love :candle:
auto
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:27 pm .
sorry to interrupt but,
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.23/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: And where name and form
Yattha nāmañca rūpañca,
cease with nothing left over;
asesaṁ uparujjhati;
as well as impingement and perception of form:
Paṭighaṁ rūpasaññā ca,
it’s there that the tangle is cut.”
etthesā chijjate jaṭā”ti.
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