Tattvasiddhi-Śāstra on Jhāna

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
Pulsar
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Re: Tattvasiddhi-Śāstra on Jhāna

Post by Pulsar »

waryoffolly wrote: Am I understanding it correctly that the Tattvasiddhi is claiming vitakka and vicara are not present in the first jhana? This is really bizarre if I'm reading it right.
There are several places where this is argued for. For example:
The opinion that the first dhyana is associated with vitarka and vicara is not good; for, according to the Sutra in the first dhyana, the ascetic ceased the speech. Vitarka and Vicara are causes of the speech. How is there the cause of speech, but the speech is ceased.
......
The first dhyana is not the noble speechless state because it is in close vicinity with vitarka and vicara and not because it is associated with them
.......
The statement that the "vitarka and vicara are stilled" does not imply that the first dhyana has them.

I'm finding these quotes very bizarre.
Thank you waryoffolly for pointing this out. Unlike you who finds these to be bizarre, I find the above to be like a breath of fresh air. It just confirms my trend of thinking regards Buddhist Jhanas.

However I understand, why you find it to be bizarre, also. I am not surprised.
This is not the first time you helped me on this forum.
Thank you too OP, appreciate your effort at locating these documents.
With love :candle:
BrokenBones
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Re: Tattvasiddhi-Śāstra on Jhāna

Post by BrokenBones »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:34 pm waryoffolly wrote: Am I understanding it correctly that the Tattvasiddhi is claiming vitakka and vicara are not present in the first jhana? This is really bizarre if I'm reading it right.
There are several places where this is argued for. For example:
The opinion that the first dhyana is associated with vitarka and vicara is not good; for, according to the Sutra in the first dhyana, the ascetic ceased the speech. Vitarka and Vicara are causes of the speech. How is there the cause of speech, but the speech is ceased.
......
The first dhyana is not the noble speechless state because it is in close vicinity with vitarka and vicara and not because it is associated with them
.......
The statement that the "vitarka and vicara are stilled" does not imply that the first dhyana has them.

I'm finding these quotes very bizarre.
Thank you waryoffolly for pointing this out. Unlike you who finds these to be bizarre, I find the above to be like a breath of fresh air. It just confirms my trend of thinking regards Buddhist Jhanas.

However I understand, why you find it to be bizarre, also. I am not surprised.
This is not the first time you helped me on this forum.
Thank you too OP, appreciate your effort at locating these documents.
With love :candle:
Do you then think vittaka & vicara are not present in first jhana?
Pulsar
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Tattvasiddhi-Śāstra on Jhāna

Post by Pulsar »

BrokenBones wrote
Do you then think vittaka & vicara are not present in first jhana?
Yes that is my conclusion. Have you followed SN 47.42? Take a peek at that, you will understand why.
Samma Sati comes before Samma samadhi. The 4 buddhist jhanas are not a stand alone Samadhi.
It is the stabilization of what was accomplished in Samma sati.
With love :candle:
BrokenBones
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Re: Tattvasiddhi-Śāstra on Jhāna

Post by BrokenBones »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:33 am BrokenBones wrote
Do you then think vittaka & vicara are not present in first jhana?
Yes that is my conclusion. Have you followed SN 47.42? Take a peek at that, you will understand why.
Samma Sati comes before Samma samadhi. The 4 buddhist jhanas are not a stand alone Samadhi.
It is the stabilization of what was accomplished in Samma sati.
With love :candle:
Well I've read SN 47.42... could you explain your reasoning on why vittaka & vicara are not factors of the first jhana?
Pulsar
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Re: Tattvasiddhi-Śāstra on Jhāna

Post by Pulsar »

BrokenBones wrote
Well I've read SN 47.42
Did you find anything unusual about this sutta?
Did you notice that it was referring to the four establishments of mindfulness, but the content was totally alien to the content of MahaSatipatthana Sutta. The way DN 22 approaches "body" and SN 47.42 approaches "body" are entirely different. Did you notice this?
The Samyukata Nikaya sutta on Establishment of Mindfulness is called "Origination". Its brevity is deceptive.

What is the sutta trying to accomplish? I am merely trying to figure out what you got out of this sutta. Without understanding how the sutta came across to you, a brief answer to your question may not be meaningful to you.
With love :candle:
thomaslaw
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Re: Tattvasiddhi-Śāstra on Jhāna

Post by thomaslaw »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:47 am The way DN 22 approaches "body" and SN 47.42 approaches "body" are entirely different. Did you notice this?
The Samyukata Nikaya sutta on Establishment of Mindfulness is called "Origination". Its brevity is deceptive.
Could you provide some explanations or concrete details regarding the differences between DN 22 and SN 47.42 on "body"? Thanks.
BrokenBones
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Re: Tattvasiddhi-Śāstra on Jhāna

Post by BrokenBones »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:47 am BrokenBones wrote
Well I've read SN 47.42
Did you find anything unusual about this sutta?
Did you notice that it was referring to the four establishments of mindfulness, but the content was totally alien to the content of MahaSatipatthana Sutta. The way DN 22 approaches "body" and SN 47.42 approaches "body" are entirely different. Did you notice this?
The Samyukata Nikaya sutta on Establishment of Mindfulness is called "Origination". Its brevity is deceptive.

What is the sutta trying to accomplish? I am merely trying to figure out what you got out of this sutta. Without understanding how the sutta came across to you, a brief answer to your question may not be meaningful to you.
With love :candle:
"Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Arising and passing away. How things arise... e.g nutriment... food and our desire/craving because we see it as attractive.

Passing away... food... nutriment... because we correct our view and see it as unattractive or not worth our while... our craving weakens... we develop a view that no longer wishes for a new body... passing away.

Please note... this whole kalapas nonsense is not seeing arising & passing away.
Inedible
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Re: Tattvasiddhi-Śāstra on Jhāna

Post by Inedible »

Is there something here that can help me attain jhana? The more I read the harder it is to follow along.
arkaprava
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Re: Tattvasiddhi-Śāstra on Jhāna

Post by arkaprava »

Only practicising will help you.
BrokenBones
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Re: Tattvasiddhi-Śāstra on Jhāna

Post by BrokenBones »

Inedible wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:33 am Is there something here that can help me attain jhana? The more I read the harder it is to follow along.
Contemplation... vittaka & vicara are the key... don't drop something before they've served their purpose.
DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Tattvasiddhi-Śāstra on Jhāna

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Inedible wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:33 am Is there something here that can help me attain jhana? The more I read the harder it is to follow along.
Youtube Ajahn Brahm meditation retreat. Best Jhana teacher out there.
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nirodh27
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Re: Tattvasiddhi-Śāstra on Jhāna

Post by nirodh27 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:21 pm
sphairos wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:46 pm Harivarman proves that the dhyāna is not needed at all for Enlightenment. Not at all, even pre-dhyāna.
A question then arises, if awakening can occur without any Jhāna why did the Buddha need them? Wouldn't that mean that the Buddha had somewhat of a lesser mind compared to those who just awaken due to wisdom? They just get it, but the Buddha himself had to use Jhāna to get there on such a view it seems.
The Buddha could't abandon sensual pleasures until the discovery on how to use Jhana and then he found Nibbana. It is recorded in MN14.

Followers of the 8fold path have all the words and the explanations to follow, it is much easier to do in comparison to the path without signs of the Buddha not knowing for certain that a path could even exists (while in an original Sangha, you will actually see and talk with Arahants "breathing" the possibility of liberation)

It's like having to make a wardobe in the first case you go to the ikea, buy the materials already packed and follow well-thought instructions and having telephone assistence, in the second case you have a forest, maybe an axe and that's it.

If I remember correctly, also in a sutta of the four ways to realization three are with Samadhi, 1 is thanks to the restlessnees in the understanding the teachings. Teachings the Buddha didn't had.
Inedible
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Re: Tattvasiddhi-Śāstra on Jhāna

Post by Inedible »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:58 am Contemplation... vittaka & vicara are the key... don't drop something before they've served their purpose.
They are the first two Jhana factors. I think this is why Buddha said to avoid rushing to the second Jhana too soon after reaching the first. And I'm not at the first yet.
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:14 am Youtube Ajahn Brahm meditation retreat. Best Jhana teacher out there.
I loved that book "Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond"
BrokenBones
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Re: Tattvasiddhi-Śāstra on Jhāna

Post by BrokenBones »

Inedible wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:45 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:58 am Contemplation... vittaka & vicara are the key... don't drop something before they've served their purpose.
They are the first two Jhana factors. I think this is why Buddha said to avoid rushing to the second Jhana too soon after reaching the first. And I'm not at the first yet.
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:14 am Youtube Ajahn Brahm meditation retreat. Best Jhana teacher out there.
I loved that book "Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond"
Vittaka & vicara don't just suddenly appear in first jhana. They're used to enter first jhana where they become more refined.
Inedible
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Re: Tattvasiddhi-Śāstra on Jhāna

Post by Inedible »

The description I read about that that made the most sense (applied and sustained thought) was that it was like using both hands to wash dishes. One hand holds, the other scrubs.
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