Tattvasiddhi-Śāstra on Jhāna

[Ceisiwr]

Thought I would share what the Tattvasiddhi-Śāstra has to say on Jhāna. Enjoy.

[Ceisiwr]

Some more

[Ceisiwr]

And more

[sphairos]

Harivarman proves that the dhyāna is not needed at all for Enlightenment. Not at all, even pre-dhyāna.

[Ceisiwr]

Harivarman proves that the dhyāna is not needed at all for Enlightenment. Not at all, even pre-dhyāna.

He does share the view with Theravāda and Sarvāstivāda that there is a dry insight way to nibbāna, yes. It seems he was also working from a version of the Susīma sutta where some Arahants are said to be without Jhāna, similar to the Sarvāstivādin one.

[sphairos]

Harivarman proves that the dhyāna is not needed at all for Enlightenment. Not at all, even pre-dhyāna.

He does share the view with Theravāda and Sarvāstivāda that there is a dry insight way to nibbāna, yes. It seems he was also working from a version of the Susīma sutta where some Arahants are said to be without Jhāna, similar to the Sarvāstivādin one.

No, he advocates prajñā path, not dhyāna path.

[Ceisiwr]

Harivarman proves that the dhyāna is not needed at all for Enlightenment. Not at all, even pre-dhyāna.

He does share the view with Theravāda and Sarvāstivāda that there is a dry insight way to nibbāna, yes. It seems he was also working from a version of the Susīma sutta where some Arahants are said to be without Jhāna, similar to the Sarvāstivādin one.

No, he advocates prajñā path, not dhyāna path.

Well regardless I was saying that he argued for it being possible to awaken without Jhāna.

[Ceisiwr]

Harivarman proves that the dhyāna is not needed at all for Enlightenment. Not at all, even pre-dhyāna.

A question then arises, if awakening can occur without any Jhāna why did the Buddha need them? Wouldn't that mean that the Buddha had somewhat of a lesser mind compared to those who just awaken due to wisdom? They just get it, but the Buddha himself had to use Jhāna to get there on such a view it seems.

[BrokenBones]

It certainly has some novel ideas about vittaka & vicara... it would be interesting to read page 390 & 391.

[Ceisiwr]

It certainly has some novel ideas about vittaka & vicara... it would be interesting to read page 390 & 391.

Sadly the pages are missing in my copy.

[sphairos]

It certainly has some novel ideas about vittaka & vicara... it would be interesting to read page 390 & 391.

Sadly the pages are missing in my copy.

Its freely available on archive.org

[waryoffolly]

The translation is somewhat tricky, but this is very interesting. Thanks for posting.

It looks like Harivarman is stating that the five sense consciousnesses cease in second jhana in multiple places of the above. I'll have to read this more closely to try and figure out what Harivarman (and the translator) is trying to say about kama/vitakka/vicara etc.

[waryoffolly]

It certainly has some novel ideas about vittaka & vicara... it would be interesting to read page 390 & 391.

Sadly the pages are missing in my copy.

Its freely available on archive.org

The archive copy found here: https://archive.org/details/104775752-s ... harivarman is missing the same pages.

[waryoffolly]

I'll have to read this more closely to try and figure out what Harivarman (and the translator) is trying to say about kama/vitakka/vicara etc.

Am I understanding it correctly that the Tattvasiddhi is claiming vitakka and vicara are not present in the first jhana? This is really bizarre if I'm reading it right.

There are several places where this is argued for. For example:

The opinion that the first dhyana is associated with vitarka and vicara is not good; for, according to the Sutra in the first dhyana, the ascetic ceased the speech. Vitarka and Vicara are causes of the speech. How is there the cause of speech, but the speech is ceased.
......
The first dhyana is not the noble speechless state because it is in close vicinity with vitarka and vicara and not because it is associated with them
.......
The statement that the "vitarka and vicara are stilled" does not imply that the first dhyana has them.

I'm finding these quotes very bizarre.

[confusedlayman]

Mind voice is thought but has no need to open the mouth