Consciousness is the fetter?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
auto
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Consciousness is the fetter?

Post by auto »

Fetter arises dependent on the eye and sights
https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:It’s when a mendicant understands the eye, sights, and the fetter that arises dependent on both of these. They understand how the fetter that has not arisen comes to arise; how the arisen fetter comes to be abandoned; and how the abandoned fetter comes to not rise again in the future.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu cakkhuñca pajānāti, rūpe ca pajānāti, yañca tadubhayaṁ paṭicca uppajjati saṁyojanaṁ tañca pajānāti, yathā ca anuppannassa saṁyojanassa uppādo hoti tañca pajānāti, yathā ca uppannassa saṁyojanassa pahānaṁ hoti tañca pajānāti, yathā ca pahīnassa saṁyojanassa āyatiṁ anuppādo hoti tañca pajānāti.
Defilements giving rise to feelings
https://suttacentral.net/an4.195/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:Take a person who did bad deeds in a past life. But the result of that has not yet ripened.
Idhassa, bhante, pubbe pāpakammaṁ kataṁ avipakkavipākaṁ.
For this reason defilements giving rise to painful feelings would defile that person in the next life.”
Tatonidānaṁ purisaṁ dukkhavedaniyā āsavā assaveyyuṁ abhisamparāyan”ti.
Is consciousness(viññāṇa) a fetter?
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cappuccino
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Re: Consciousness is the fetter?

Post by cappuccino »

auto wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:18 pm Is consciousness a fetter?
No…
Jack19990101
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Re: Consciousness is the fetter?

Post by Jack19990101 »

fetters are not categorized with khandas, fetters are gravitation, inclination of mind.
sense consciousness, being a khanda, is not on the list of 10 fetters but it is something that to be abandoned.
sense consciousness is a result when mind gravitates towards one of the six senses.
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Re: Consciousness is the fetter?

Post by auto »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:18 pm
auto wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:18 pm Is consciousness a fetter?
No…
Let me help you be more articulate,
Do you think consciousness is vital element for seeing an object with the eye?
Do you think consciousness involved here,
https://suttacentral.net/an4.198/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:Seeing a sight with the eyes, they don’t get caught up in the features and details.
So cakkhunā rūpaṁ disvā na nimittaggāhī hoti nānubyañjanaggāhī.
Don't you think that in order to get caught up in the features and details one need consciousness to arise?
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cappuccino
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Re: Consciousness is the fetter?

Post by cappuccino »

auto wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:43 pm Don't you think that in order to get caught up in the features and details one need consciousness to arise?
the key is not delighting in the visual


however it's perhaps for monks
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Re: Consciousness is the fetter?

Post by auto »

Jack19990101 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:41 pm sense consciousness is a result when mind gravitates towards one of the six senses.
I think it fits with this,
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.40/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“Mendicants, what you intend or plan, and what you have underlying tendencies for become a support for the continuation of consciousness.
“Yañca, bhikkhave, ceteti yañca pakappeti yañca anuseti ārammaṇametaṁ hoti viññāṇassa ṭhitiyā.
sense organ consciousness is the continuance of consciousness. Its not yet established. So, i assume sense organ consciousness is bhava
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.40/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:When this support exists, consciousness becomes established.
Ārammaṇe sati patiṭṭhā viññāṇassa hoti.
bhava is rebirth fetter. I haven't found the AN sutta what says it, yet.
bhavābhava - rebirth in this or that state, i think it refers to consciousness becoming established.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.40/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:‘I didn’t go forth from the lay life to homelessness for the sake of a robe,
‘na kho panāhaṁ cīvarahetu agārasmā anagāriyaṁ pabbajito.
alms-food, lodgings, or rebirth in this or that state.
Na piṇḍapātahetu, na senāsanahetu, na itibhavābhavahetu agārasmā anagāriyaṁ pabbajito.
bodhi translation shows it a bit more clearly that the bhava could be the consciousness not yet established
https://suttacentral.net/an3.40/en/bodhi?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:(1) “And what, bhikkhus, is oneself as one’s authority? Here, having gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty hut, a bhikkhu reflects thus: ‘I did not go forth from the household life into homelessness for the sake of a robe, almsfood, or lodging, or for the sake of becoming this or that,
rebirth, old age, death is also consciousness but in this case established,
https://suttacentral.net/an3.40/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:But I was swamped by rebirth, old age, and death; by sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress. I was swamped by suffering, mired in suffering.
Api ca khomhi otiṇṇo jātiyā jarāya maraṇena sokehi paridevehi dukkhehi domanassehi upāyāsehi, dukkhotiṇṇo dukkhapareto.
auto
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Re: Consciousness is the fetter?

Post by auto »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:15 pm
auto wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:43 pm Don't you think that in order to get caught up in the features and details one need consciousness to arise?
the key is not delighting in the visual


however it's perhaps for monks
I think you got it. Consciousness doesn't arise when the object of inclination is not fit for delighting.
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Re: Consciousness is the fetter?

Post by Spiny Norman »

auto wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:18 pm Fetter arises dependent on the eye and sights
https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:It’s when a mendicant understands the eye, sights, and the fetter that arises dependent on both of these. They understand how the fetter that has not arisen comes to arise; how the arisen fetter comes to be abandoned; and how the abandoned fetter comes to not rise again in the future.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu cakkhuñca pajānāti, rūpe ca pajānāti, yañca tadubhayaṁ paṭicca uppajjati saṁyojanaṁ tañca pajānāti, yathā ca anuppannassa saṁyojanassa uppādo hoti tañca pajānāti, yathā ca uppannassa saṁyojanassa pahānaṁ hoti tañca pajānāti, yathā ca pahīnassa saṁyojanassa āyatiṁ anuppādo hoti tañca pajānāti.
Defilements giving rise to feelings
https://suttacentral.net/an4.195/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:Take a person who did bad deeds in a past life. But the result of that has not yet ripened.
Idhassa, bhante, pubbe pāpakammaṁ kataṁ avipakkavipākaṁ.
For this reason defilements giving rise to painful feelings would defile that person in the next life.”
Tatonidānaṁ purisaṁ dukkhavedaniyā āsavā assaveyyuṁ abhisamparāyan”ti.
Is consciousness(viññāṇa) a fetter?
See section D. 3 in this version of MN10, which deals with contemplation of the sense-bases in the fourth frame of satipatthana.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
".. He discerns the eye, he discerns form, he discerns the fetter that arises in dependence on both.."
This appears to support the idea of arising consciousness as a fetter.
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Re: Consciousness is the fetter?

Post by cappuccino »

auto wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:58 pm Consciousness doesn't arise when
that's annihilation ism
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Re: Consciousness is the fetter?

Post by Spiny Norman »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:38 pm
auto wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:58 pm Consciousness doesn't arise when
that's annihilation ism
No. The question posed here is whether sense-consciousness (vinnana) is inherently a source of dukkha.
In cessation mode, DO describes the cessation of vinnana, hence the question.
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Re: Consciousness is the fetter?

Post by cappuccino »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:56 pm DO describes the cessation of vinnana
Kevatta Sutta

Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around
Ontheway
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Re: Consciousness is the fetter?

Post by Ontheway »

Consciousness is not a fetter, but it is subject to fetters.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Re: Consciousness is the fetter?

Post by pegembara »

Literally, the sights, sounds, smells, taste, touch, thoughts and perceptions can lead to the arising of fetters but not necessarily all the time or in every person. But without them how can fetters even arise!

How can one lust or hate something that they don't see, hear or know about?
It’s when a mendicant understands the eye, sights, and the fetter that arises dependent on both of these. They understand how the fetter that has not arisen comes to arise; how the arisen fetter comes to be abandoned; and how the abandoned fetter comes to not rise again in the future.
"Monks, the All is aflame. What All is aflame? The eye is aflame. Forms are aflame. Consciousness at the eye is aflame. Contact at the eye is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I tell you, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Consciousness is the fetter?

Post by confusedlayman »

ignorance is fetter.. consciousness just arise with object and cease.. its not everlasting at all..
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Consciousness is the fetter?

Post by auto »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:00 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:56 pm DO describes the cessation of vinnana
Kevatta Sutta

Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around
Consciousness without feature can be known through something, but it isn't through the all(sense organ and its object),
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN49.html wrote:“‘If, good sir, you have directly known the extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the all, may it not turn out to be actually vain and void for you.’

“‘Consciousness without surface,

endless, radiant all around,
Continued existence is the extent what is experienced through the sense organ consciousness(the all),
https://suttacentral.net/mn49/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:And while invisible I recited this verse:
Antarahito imaṁ gāthaṁ abhāsiṁ:

‘Seeing the danger in continued existence—
‘Bhavevāhaṁ bhayaṁ disvā,
that life in any existence will cease to be—
bhavañca vibhavesinaṁ;
I didn’t welcome any kind of existence,
Bhavaṁ nābhivadiṁ kiñci,
and didn’t grasp at relishing.’
nandiñca na upādiyin’ti.
If no support(ārammaṇa) then the consciousness won't get established(there won't be sense organ consciousness), that is The extent what is not experienced through the all(sense organs and their objects).
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.40/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“Mendicants, what you intend or plan, and what you have underlying tendencies for become a support for the continuation of consciousness.
“Yañca, bhikkhave, ceteti yañca pakappeti yañca anuseti ārammaṇametaṁ hoti viññāṇassa ṭhitiyā.
When this support exists, consciousness becomes established.
Ārammaṇe sati patiṭṭhā viññāṇassa hoti.
that above is preclude for knowing(vijānāti) feelings, you still need deal with the jhāna.
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:There remains only consciousness, pure and bright.
Athāparaṁ viññāṇaṁyeva avasissati parisuddhaṁ pariyodātaṁ.
And what does that consciousness know?
Tena ca viññāṇena kiṁ vijānāti?
vijānāti,
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/v/vij%C4%81n%C4%81ti/ wrote:PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Vijānāti,[vi+jñā] to have discriminative (dis=vi°) knowledge,to recognize,apprehend,ascertain,to become aware of,to understand,notice,perceive,distinguish,learn,know
I assume in mn1 sutta, the jhāna is in an unmentioned form under the nibbāna section.

In sum consciousness without feature, luminous all around is what knows the feelings in jhāna.
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