EA 12.1 satipatthana sutra from a different school, 4 jhanas fully integrated within 4 satipatthanas, occurring simultan

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frank k
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EA 12.1 satipatthana sutra from a different school, 4 jhanas fully integrated within 4 satipatthanas, occurring simultan

Post by frank k »

https://lucid24.org/sted/4sp/4sp-suttas ... l#flink-15

Link there to EA 12.1 in Chinese + English, based on Analayo translation,
the 4 jhanas section gone through with Dr. William Chu to correct some of Analayo's errors.

Eventually, people will start catching on to the idea that 4 Jhānas🌕 ≈ 4 Satipaṭṭhāna🐘
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html

It's not just in the other EBT schools. Within Theravada, you'll see the same idea play out in kayagata sutta MN 119, SN 47.4 most prominently,
and MN 125 is explicit in equating the 4satipatthana with first jhana. Meaning you can do first jhana, and satipatthana in all 4 postures.

http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... uated.html
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Re: EA 12.1 satipatthana sutra from a different school, 4 jhanas fully integrated within 4 satipatthanas, occurring simu

Post by SarathW »

I did not read the links you provided.
But I do not personally believe that four Jhana = four Satipathana
Jhana leads to Jhananga = Vitakka, Vicara, Pithy,Sukha,Ekatgata
Satipathana lead to Bojjanga = Sati,viriya,vimamsa,pithi,pasaddhi, samadhi etc

However first Satipathana can be equate to first Jhana with some exceptions.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: EA 12.1 satipatthana sutra from a different school, 4 jhanas fully integrated within 4 satipatthanas, occurring simu

Post by frank k »

Note the difference between the equal sign "=" and "≈" approximately, (The ≈ is used mostly in terms of numerical approximations, meaning that the values in questions are "close" to each other in whatever context one is)
4 Jhānas🌕 ≈ 4 Satipaṭṭhāna🐘

You didn't read the links because of what? So you can continue holding on to misguided views on jhana and bojjhanga based on LBT?

You admit that first jhana = satipatthana done with samadhi of certain quality.
And you can't help but notice the phrase "sati and sampajano", explicitly part of 3rd jhana formula, elsewhere such as SN 47.2 define S&S as the 4 satipatthana.
So if 1st jhana is doing satipathana, as as 3rd jhana, why is hard to believe 2nd and 4th jhana can as well?
4th jhana's formula "upekkha sati pari suddhim" means that all 7 awakening factors have been sufficiently completed in order for 4th jhana to be possible.
upekkha = bojjhanga #7, sati is #1, parisuddhim is purified or completion of #1-#7

SarathW wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:15 am I did not read the links you provided.
But I do not personally believe that four Jhana = four Satipathana
Jhana leads to Jhananga = Vitakka, Vicara, Pithy,Sukha,Ekatgata
Satipathana lead to Bojjanga = Sati,viriya,vimamsa,pithi,pasaddhi, samadhi etc

However first Satipathana can be equate to first Jhana with some exceptions.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
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Re: EA 12.1 satipatthana sutra from a different school, 4 jhanas fully integrated within 4 satipatthanas, occurring simu

Post by frank k »

SarathW wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:15 am I did not read the links you provided.
But I do not personally believe that four Jhana = four Satipathana
Jhana leads to Jhananga = Vitakka, Vicara, Pithy,Sukha,Ekatgata
Satipathana lead to Bojjanga = Sati,viriya,vimamsa,pithi,pasaddhi, samadhi etc

However first Satipathana can be equate to first Jhana with some exceptions.
One other big issue that people don't understand, due to LBT propaganda in redefining the 4 jhanas as a disembodied frozen stupor done as a pure samatha exercise with "5 jhana factors" that intentionally murder the vipassana factors of upekkha and sampajano, and redefine vitakka and vicara to be non-vipassana factors to freeze the mind in stupor instead of exercising full vipassana capabilities as defined in the EBT.

Details of that here: The 4 jhānas have 7☀️ factors. Not 5.
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html

There's another link for you to not read, SarathW, since you seem to prefer tenaciously clinging on to LBT views :)
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Re: EA 12.1 satipatthana sutra from a different school, 4 jhanas fully integrated within 4 satipatthanas, occurring simu

Post by thomaslaw »

I think SN 47.2 (= SA 622) indicates that "sati and sampajano" as the four satipatthanas is the earliest teaching on satipatthana in Early Buddhism.

According to this text (SN 47.2 = SA 622), the four Jhanas are not the four Satipathanas.
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Re: EA 12.1 satipatthana sutra from a different school, 4 jhanas fully integrated within 4 satipatthanas, occurring simu

Post by auto »

When kusala consciousness arises, but its proximity cause is not noticed, then the concentration is prolonged in review stage where the object is registered and enjoyed. On this case jhana factors are adverted, by using some method: vipassana or samatha etc.
If proximity cause is noticed then the registering stage doesn't happen because instead of rupaarammana(visible support) there is mahaarammana, rupa and maha support are one and the same but what makes it maha is that it matures in one instant.
So here are the reasons why one does practices, what went wrong. So ideally mindfulness, tranquility, insight etc training is because one isn't perfect but also not off the path either, practioner can be cured.

you should study more. For example what is thana*.
frank k wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:52 pm One other big issue that people don't understand, due to LBT propaganda in redefining the 4 jhanas as a disembodied frozen stupor done as a pure samatha exercise with "5 jhana factors" that intentionally murder the vipassana factors of upekkha and sampajano, and redefine vitakka and vicara to be non-vipassana factors to freeze the mind in stupor instead of exercising full vipassana capabilities as defined in the EBT.
*
abhidhamma wrote:‘òhana’ means ‘functioning place’. As we need a place or office
to carry out a particular job, so cittas need places to perform
their functions. It is the body-substance of each citta which serves
as the place of performing its function.
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Re: EA 12.1 satipatthana sutra from a different school, 4 jhanas fully integrated within 4 satipatthanas, occurring simu

Post by frank k »

thomaslaw wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:13 am I think SN 47.2 (= SA 622) indicates that "sati and sampajano" as the four satipatthanas is the earliest teaching on satipatthana in Early Buddhism.

According to this text (SN 47.2 = SA 622), the four Jhanas are not the four Satipathanas.
maybe you posted your message before reading the rest of the thread.
what do you think 3rd jhana's 'sato and sampajano' is referring to?
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Satima00
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Re: EA 12.1 satipatthana sutra from a different school, 4 jhanas fully integrated within 4 satipatthanas, occurring simu

Post by Satima00 »

frank k wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:52 pm
SarathW wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:15 am I did not read the links you provided.
But I do not personally believe that four Jhana = four Satipathana
Jhana leads to Jhananga = Vitakka, Vicara, Pithy,Sukha,Ekatgata
Satipathana lead to Bojjanga = Sati,viriya,vimamsa,pithi,pasaddhi, samadhi etc

However first Satipathana can be equate to first Jhana with some exceptions.
One other big issue that people don't understand, due to LBT propaganda in redefining the 4 jhanas as a disembodied frozen stupor done as a pure samatha exercise with "5 jhana factors" that intentionally murder the vipassana factors of upekkha and sampajano, and redefine vitakka and vicara to be non-vipassana factors to freeze the mind in stupor instead of exercising full vipassana capabilities as defined in the EBT.

Details of that here: The 4 jhānas have 7☀️ factors. Not 5.
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html

There's another link for you to not read, SarathW, since you seem to prefer tenaciously clinging on to LBT views :)
The later Theravada tradition represented by Commentaries and Visuddhimagga does not define the jhanas as a disembodied frozen stupor, but the need to systematize the doctrine leads to a stark conceptual juxtaposition of various components of the path which in actual practice are closely intertwined and difficult to separate. Nonetheless, the fact that the jhanas are valuable in the process of awakening should not make one forget that they represent a form of unification of the mind (cittass'ekaggata) that is unable on its own to lead to insight because it lacks the breadth of focus necessary to realize impermanence and the like. This though doesn't mean that the jhanas are semi-conscious states, except for the eighth jhana and cessation. Those who think they are able to hear sounds, notice body sensation, or even think while in jhana aren't in jhana but in its proximity.
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Re: EA 12.1 satipatthana sutra from a different school, 4 jhanas fully integrated within 4 satipatthanas, occurring simu

Post by waryoffolly »

Satima00 wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:37 pm Nonetheless, the fact that the jhanas are valuable in the process of awakening should not make one forget that they represent a form of unification of the mind (cittass'ekaggata) that is unable on its own to lead to insight because it lacks the breadth of focus necessary to realize impermanence and the like.
Hi Satima00,

Ekaggata can be present while walking (as ekaggam) or listening (and comprehending) a dhamma talk. These are two examples from the canon where the “literally one-pointed” meaning simply doesn’t work. I can provide the quotes if you’d like later.
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Re: EA 12.1 satipatthana sutra from a different school, 4 jhanas fully integrated within 4 satipatthanas, occurring simu

Post by Satima00 »

waryoffolly wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:49 pm
Satima00 wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:37 pm Nonetheless, the fact that the jhanas are valuable in the process of awakening should not make one forget that they represent a form of unification of the mind (cittass'ekaggata) that is unable on its own to lead to insight because it lacks the breadth of focus necessary to realize impermanence and the like.
Hi Satima00,

Ekaggata can be present while walking (as ekaggam) or listening (and comprehending) a dhamma talk. These are two examples from the canon where the “literally one-pointed” meaning simply doesn’t work. I can provide the quotes if you’d like later.
I don't doubt that certain technical terms may be used in a variety of meanings, especially in the suttas where the concern is more pragmatic and less about being pedantically exact. Another example would be the polyvalence of the word sati, which can retain the original meaning of memory, even though it doesn't really apply to satipatthana. The fact is that everyone will agree that jhana is different from normal consciousness (it is even thought to transcend the sensual sphere of existence leading to the fine-material one), so taking examples of the use of ekaggata as applying to listening to a talk or walking cannot be appropriate. According to the Abhidhamma it is even present in every state of consciousness, but if it needs to be stated in the context of absorption it must be something slightly different. In MN 44 the Buddha defines samadhi as unification of mind, but there is no instance of someone entering jhana while walking, as far as I'm aware of.
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Re: EA 12.1 satipatthana sutra from a different school, 4 jhanas fully integrated within 4 satipatthanas, occurring simu

Post by waryoffolly »

Satima00 wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:03 pm The fact is that everyone will agree that jhana is different from normal consciousness (it is even thought to transcend the sensual sphere of existence leading to the fine-material one), so taking examples of the use of ekaggata as applying to listening to a talk or walking cannot be appropriate.
AN 4.12 has cittam ekaggam while walking, and is in the context of samadhi not “normal consciousness”. I’d argue the other example of “listening with unified mind” is also in a samadhi context since it is said to lead to the arising of the path, which presumably requires samadhi (ask for quote if you’d like). So, IMO both of these quotes are in the same context as the jhana’s, i.e. the context of samadhi.

Jhana being different from normal consciousness (which I agree with of course!) does not imply ekaggata has to take the most restricted and literal meaning of “one-pointed”.
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Re: EA 12.1 satipatthana sutra from a different school, 4 jhanas fully integrated within 4 satipatthanas, occurring simu

Post by Satima00 »

waryoffolly wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:23 pm
Satima00 wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:03 pm The fact is that everyone will agree that jhana is different from normal consciousness (it is even thought to transcend the sensual sphere of existence leading to the fine-material one), so taking examples of the use of ekaggata as applying to listening to a talk or walking cannot be appropriate.
AN 4.12 has cittam ekaggam while walking, and is in the context of samadhi not “normal consciousness”. I’d argue the other example of “listening with unified mind” is also in a samadhi context since it is said to lead to the arising of the path, which presumably requires samadhi (ask for quote if you’d like). So, IMO both of these quotes are in the same context as the jhana’s, i.e. the context of samadhi.

Jhana being different from normal consciousness (which I agree with of course!) does not imply ekaggata has to take the most restricted and literal meaning of “one-pointed”.
Ironically the passage you mentioned seems to support the "Vipassanavada" notion that right concentration doesn't have to mean jhana. Interestingly it describes the removal of the hindrances, but makes no mention of jhana. Similarly according to the Visuddhimagga one can achieve access concentration while walking, but not jhana. In fact this sutta seems to be describing a form of insight meditation, where one having established mindfulness and overcome the hindrances through a sufficient level of samadhi contemplates the "rise and fall of conditioned phenomena".
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Re: EA 12.1 satipatthana sutra from a different school, 4 jhanas fully integrated within 4 satipatthanas, occurring simu

Post by waryoffolly »

Satima00 wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:43 pm
Ironically the passage you mentioned seems to support the "Vipassanavada" notion that right concentration doesn't have to mean jhana. Interestingly it describes the removal of the hindrances, but makes no mention of jhana. Similarly according to the Visuddhimagga one can achieve access concentration while walking, but not jhana. In fact this sutta seems to be describing a form of insight meditation, where one having established mindfulness and overcome the hindrances through a sufficient level of samadhi contemplates the "rise and fall of conditioned phenomena".
Well to be honest I’m perfectly ok with people labelling the above passages as “insight jhana/samadhi” or “access samadhi”. I don’t think the evidence is there in the suttas to make that distinction (between jhana, samma samadhi, and the bojjhanga) but from a pragmatic standpoint it doesn’t really affect how one develops samadhi. Especially not if one believes “access samadhi” is sufficient for full awakening (or at least stream entry!).

Anyways, don’t miss my main point which is that ekaggata in a samadhi context doesn’t require taking the “literally one perception” meaning!
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Re: EA 12.1 satipatthana sutra from a different school, 4 jhanas fully integrated within 4 satipatthanas, occurring simu

Post by SDC »

Satima00 wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:03 pm but there is no instance of someone entering jhana while walking, as far as I'm aware of.
AN 3.63, but the argument seems to be that since it’s only found in this sutta that it’s probably inaccurate. A weak argument if you ask me considering how many well-known themes and utterances there are that do not appear frequently in the literature. (Could just be a case of an account being so accurate and useful as an instruction that there was no need for it to be described any other way at a later occasion; and that a recounting of that one discourse was all that was necessary to make the theme clear. But that’s a topic of a different color.)

Hope you find that sutta useful.
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Re: EA 12.1 satipatthana sutra from a different school, 4 jhanas fully integrated within 4 satipatthanas, occurring simu

Post by Ceisiwr »

AN 4.12 is interesting. The verse sounds more like sense-restraint, mindfulness and clear-comprehension which occurs before Jhāna is achieved according to a large number of texts.

Carefully walking, carefully standing,
carefully sitting, carefully lying;
a mendicant carefully bends their limbs,
and carefully extends them.


There is precedent for verse being older than prose, with prose being a commentary to accompany the verse. That is possibly what's happened here, namely some ancient commentary by a Thera regarding sense restraint. That is comes from the AN is even more compelling, since that Nikaya was more open to "additional material" than some of the others. How accurate that commentary is, if it is indeed that, is another question.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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