First Jhāna Only

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: First Jhāna Only

Post by Coëmgenu »

Plulslar wrote:
Neither passive nor aggressive, I am never good at spelling names unless it is Jack and Jill or DooDoot who I dearly miss.
Jack, Jill, DooDoot. One of these names is not like the other.

I am personally skeptical of your claims above. Nonetheless, you are free to be as heedless as you wish in your radical eschewing of the cut-and-paste function.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Pulsar
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Re: First Jhāna Only

Post by Pulsar »

OP wrote
Wouldn't this mean there were people in the world who had more natural wisdom and mastery over the mind than the Buddha did?
The suttas that you picked from the Pali canon, AN 9.36 and MN 52, which create such thoughts in you?
did it not occur to you that there is something radically wrong with these suttas
that include the Arupa samapatthis (stuff that was practiced way before Buddha awakened, tried and failed) as Buddha's teachings. There are many suttas eighty or ninety??? that speak of awakening without Arupa samapatthis' assistance.
It puzzled me for a long time why we have a bunch of suttas like AN 9.36??? in the sutta Pitaka. Might not this be the work of Vibajjavadins? It is impossible that Sthaviras wrote or transmitted orally such suttas.
Did Buddha teach the Arupas? It is impossible, since he also taught Paticca Samuppada. These two are totally in conflict with each other.
According to Buddha Nama-rupa needs to be got rid of, and worldly consciousness, in order to terminate suffering.
Can you pl explain how Arupa samapatthis lead to deletion of Nama-rupa, and termination of suffering?
Were there
people in the world who had more natural wisdom and mastery over the mind than the Buddha did?
you wrote.
Are you referring to Alara Kalama and Uddakaramaputta? or the Jain masters?
With love :candle:
auto
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Re: First Jhāna Only

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:48 pm ..
vibhajjavādo - analysis
ekaṁsavādo - definite
https://suttacentral.net/an10.94/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:In doing so he is one who speaks after analyzing the question,
Gārayhaṁ kho pana, bhante, bhagavā garahanto pasaṁsitabbaṁ pasaṁsanto vibhajjavādo bhagavā.
and is not definitive on this point.”
Na so bhagavā ettha ekaṁsavādo”ti.
after saying he is using analysis, people accuse him avoiding making statements.
wrote:When he said this, one of the wanderers said to him,
Evaṁ vutte, aññataro paribbājako vajjiyamāhitaṁ gahapatiṁ etadavoca:
“Hold on, householder! That ascetic Gotama who you praise is an exterminator who refrains from making statements.”
“āgamehi tvaṁ, gahapati, yassa tvaṁ samaṇassa gotamassa vaṇṇaṁ bhāsati, samaṇo gotamo venayiko appaññattiko”ti?
but he makes statements on what is skillful and what is not skillful.
wrote:“On this point, also, I reasonably respond to the venerables.
“Etthapāhaṁ, bhante, āyasmante vakkhāmi sahadhammena:
The Buddha has stated ‘This is skillful’ and
‘idaṁ kusalan’ti, bhante, bhagavatā paññattaṁ;
‘This is unskillful’.
‘idaṁ akusalan’ti, bhante, bhagavatā paññattaṁ.
So when it comes to what is skillful and unskillful the Buddha makes a statement.
Iti kusalākusalaṁ bhagavā paññāpayamāno sapaññattiko bhagavā;
He is not an exterminator who refrains from making statements.”
na so bhagavā venayiko appaññattiko”ti.
Buddha calls himself vibhajjavādo when it becomes to questions like these,
https://suttacentral.net/mn99/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “Master Gotama, the brahmins say:
“brāhmaṇā, bho gotama, evamāhaṁsu:
‘Laypeople succeed in the procedure of the skillful teaching, not renunciates.’
‘gahaṭṭho ārādhako hoti ñāyaṁ dhammaṁ kusalaṁ, na pabbajito ārādhako hoti ñāyaṁ dhammaṁ kusalan’ti.
What do you say about this?”
Idha bhavaṁ gotamo kimāhā”ti?

“On this point, student, I speak after analyzing the question,
“Vibhajjavādo kho ahamettha, māṇava;
not definitively.
nāhamettha ekaṁsavādo.
Katthvatthu supposedly is about analysis, it is not about making definite statements. If there is statements like there is no sound during jhāna, then this is not definite statement, but is answered through analysis. Well at least it is a point for discussion if those statements are definite or not.
auto
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Re: First Jhāna Only

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:05 pm .
first jhāna is nirodha, but not really,
https://suttacentral.net/an9.61/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“First, take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures … enters and remains in the first absorption.
“Idhāvuso, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi …pe… paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
To this extent the Buddha spoke of progressive cessation in a qualified sense. …
Ettāvatāpi kho, āvuso, anupubbanirodho vutto bhagavatā pariyāyena …pe….

Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end.
Puna caparaṁ, āvuso, bhikkhu sabbaso nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ samatikkamma saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ upasampajja viharati, paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti.
To this extent the Buddha spoke of progressive cessation in a definitive sense.”
Ettāvatāpi kho, āvuso, anupubbanirodho vutto bhagavatā nippariyāyenā”ti.
auto
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Re: First Jhāna Only

Post by auto »

op posted a Sutta,
https://suttacentral.net/an9.36/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:..Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements. If they don’t attain the ending of defilements, with the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously, because of their passion and love for that meditation. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world.
compare it to,
https://suttacentral.net/an4.123/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:Firstly, a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
They enjoy it and like it and find it satisfying.
So tadassādeti, taṁ nikāmeti, tena ca vittiṁ āpajjati.
If they abide in that, are committed to it, and meditate on it often without losing it, when they die they’re reborn in the company of the gods of Brahmā’s Host.
Tattha ṭhito tadadhimutto tabbahulavihārī aparihīno kālaṁ kurumāno brahmakāyikānaṁ devānaṁ sahabyataṁ upapajjati.
The lifespan of the gods of Brahma’s Host is one eon.
Brahmakāyikānaṁ, bhikkhave, devānaṁ kappo āyuppamāṇaṁ.
which makes me think that the person who abides in jhāna has reborn there and that rebirth is where to end defilements? per abhidhamma or kathavatthu, nibbana is realized with the ordinary consciousness.
wrote:‘The first absorption is a basis for ending the defilements.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it? Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption. They contemplate the phenomena there—included in form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness—as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self.
They turn their mind away from those things, and apply it to the deathless: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’
I think the standard jhāna description is mendicant thinking about jhāna, bringing it to their mind based on past life(consciousness what are experienced in jhāna realm). In the past life one weren't anagami yet and fell back to the existence where he originally passed away. In that sense one contemplates future too since his current life is the same existence to where his contemplation subject is about to reborn in the future.
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confusedlayman
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Re: First Jhāna Only

Post by confusedlayman »

Some people need 9th jhana to be anagami
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
auto
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Re: First Jhāna Only

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:26 am Some people need 9th jhana to be anagami
here,
abhidhamma by Dr Tin Mon pdf 178 wrote: ‘Nirodha-samàpatti’ means ‘attainment of extinction’. This vãthi
is developed to suspend temporarily all consciousness and
mental activity, following immediately upon the semi-conscious
state called ‘sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception’
(nevasa¤¤à-n’àsa¤¤à-yatana jhàna).
Only anàgàmi or arahant who has mastered all the nine
absorption (jhànas) is able to develop the nirodha-samàpatti vãthi.
The procedure for developing the nirodha-samàpatti vãthi is as
follows.
how,
wrote:First of all the person enters the råpàvacara first-jhàna, comes
out of it and meditates on the jhàna components as to their
characteristics of impermanence, suffering and non-self.
..
what it means to meditate on the jhana component's characteristics,
wrote:When one of the three characteristics of existence enters
the avenue of the mind-door of anàgàmà, the lifecontinuum
vibrates twice as bhavaïga-calàna and
bhavaïgupaccheda and becomes arrested. The manodvàràvajjana
considers the object and decides whether
it is good or bad. Then one of the four ¤àõa-sampayuttaü
mahà-kusala cittas, observing the tãlakkhaõa object,
functions three times as parikamma (omit in tikkha-pa¤¤à
person), upacàra and anuloma, and, observing Nibbàna,
functions once as vodàna. After that anàgàmi-phala citta,
observing Nibbàna, functions as appanà-javana many
times as long as the person wishes up to seven days.
path fruit is developed by insight.
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confusedlayman
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Re: First Jhāna Only

Post by confusedlayman »

auto wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:09 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:26 am Some people need 9th jhana to be anagami
here,
abhidhamma by Dr Tin Mon pdf 178 wrote: ‘Nirodha-samàpatti’ means ‘attainment of extinction’. This vãthi
is developed to suspend temporarily all consciousness and
mental activity, following immediately upon the semi-conscious
state called ‘sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception’
(nevasa¤¤à-n’àsa¤¤à-yatana jhàna).
Only anàgàmi or arahant who has mastered all the nine
absorption (jhànas) is able to develop the nirodha-samàpatti vãthi.
The procedure for developing the nirodha-samàpatti vãthi is as
follows.
how,
wrote:First of all the person enters the råpàvacara first-jhàna, comes
out of it and meditates on the jhàna components as to their
characteristics of impermanence, suffering and non-self.
..
what it means to meditate on the jhana component's characteristics,
wrote:When one of the three characteristics of existence enters
the avenue of the mind-door of anàgàmà, the lifecontinuum
vibrates twice as bhavaïga-calàna and
bhavaïgupaccheda and becomes arrested. The manodvàràvajjana
considers the object and decides whether
it is good or bad. Then one of the four ¤àõa-sampayuttaü
mahà-kusala cittas, observing the tãlakkhaõa object,
functions three times as parikamma (omit in tikkha-pa¤¤à
person), upacàra and anuloma, and, observing Nibbàna,
functions once as vodàna. After that anàgàmi-phala citta,
observing Nibbàna, functions as appanà-javana many
times as long as the person wishes up to seven days.
path fruit is developed by insight.
thanks
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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