How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
SarathW
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by SarathW »

the varieties of samādhi
Modern Theravada, especially the 20th century Vipassana schools, emphasize the development of what they call “samādhi” in various forms that are not found in the EBTs.
Again Bhante Sujato is bogged down on categories. You can decide the Samadhi for as many categories as you like. You can say that you are in Samma Samadhi when you abstain from taking alcohol for instance
Every formulation of the path includes samādhi
Then he contradicts himself with the above in the next comment "dry insight".
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by SarathW »

In the EBTs, serenity, and insight are not different kinds of meditation
Buth the Jhana and Samadhi are two different things in the Sutta Pitaka.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by SarathW »

The first of the comprehensive Theravadin books of the path is called the Paṭisambhidāmagga, and its title alone raises the paṭisambhidās from an obscure and occasional teaching in the Suttas to a core aspect of Theravadin self-identity.
To me Patismbhidamagga is also another commentary like Abhidhamma.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by SarathW »

Popular Theravada often claims that certain consequences in this life must have been created by bad kamma in past lives.
Doesn't Sutta say that eye, eat, etc are past Kamma?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by SarathW »

What we think of as a person is, in fact, nothing more than the five aggregates.
I can't imagine how misinformed Bhante Sujato is!
We all know that Vehana and Sanna are not separable.
Why does Bhante Sujato fail to understand that Sutta is also a study guide like Abhidhamma etc?
It appears he accepts the Sutta like the Gospel Truth.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by SarathW »

The Visuddhimagga describes in detail the development of the so-called nimitta in meditation. The nimitta is a perception, typically seen as a light, that arises and stabilizes as the meditator becomes free of hindrances. This terminology has become entrenched in modern meditation discourse.
To the NImitta means something pre-curser for something to follow. The way I understand Visuddhimaga Nimitta also describes the same. The problem is not the Visuddhimagga, the problem is the people who read it and see them as absolute catogaries.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
thomaslaw
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by thomaslaw »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:46 am I don't think Ven. Sujato defines Early Buddhism properly.
Yes, I agree with you completely.

He fails to see and state clearly all extant “early Buddhist texts” EBTs (including Pali texts of Theravada) are in fact sectarian, not Early Buddhism.

Early Buddhism is not entirely the teachings of the extant EBTs.

That is, the extant all canonical discourses in Pali, Chinese, Tibetan, and Sanskrit were not entirely codified in the Buddha’s lifetime or shortly thereafter.
SarathW
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by SarathW »

In my opinion, the Early Buddhist sect went against the spirit of Kalama Sutta.
It is a disservice for the monks who are ordained in this Linage.
They discourage the monks to learn these valuable texts such as Abhidhamma, Commentaries, Visuddhimagga, Patisabidhamagga, etc.
Why can't they allow people to learn every possible thing and let them make up their own minds?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
thomaslaw
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by thomaslaw »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:36 am In my opinion, the Early Buddhist sect went against the spirit of Kalama Sutta.
It is a disservice for the monks who are ordained in this Linage.
They discourage the monks to learn these valuable texts such as Abhidhamma, Commentaries, Visuddhimagga, Patisabidhamagga, etc.
Why can't they allow people to learn every possible thing and let them make up their own minds?
So, the monks should study those texts critically, following the spirit of Kalama Sutta.
SarathW
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by SarathW »

thomaslaw wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:59 am
SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:36 am In my opinion, the Early Buddhist sect went against the spirit of Kalama Sutta.
It is a disservice for the monks who are ordained in this Linage.
They discourage the monks to learn these valuable texts such as Abhidhamma, Commentaries, Visuddhimagga, Patisabidhamagga, etc.
Why can't they allow people to learn every possible thing and let them make up their own minds?
So, the monks should study those texts critically, following the spirit of Kalama Sutta.
Exactly. Don't even take EBT as the ultimate truth.
EBT and commentaries are just guidelines and you have to practice and experience yourself.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
BrokenBones
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by BrokenBones »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:36 am In my opinion, the Early Buddhist sect went against the spirit of Kalama Sutta.
It is a disservice for the monks who are ordained in this Linage.
They discourage the monks to learn these valuable texts such as Abhidhamma, Commentaries, Visuddhimagga, Patisabidhamagga, etc.
Why can't they allow people to learn every possible thing and let them make up their own minds?
A greater disservice is to accept teachings which come much later and are not the words of the Buddha without taking a critical look at what they say.

Nobody is stopping anybody from learning whatever they want; articles like this are merely emphasising what the Buddha taught and what he didn't.

If people want to follow teachings that are not the Buddha's words then that is perfectly fine... just don't conflate the two... which is not fine at all.

And Bhante Sujato was spot on with his criticism of 'lineage' and the super duper titles that seem to be so important to certain groups in the Theravada tradition.
SarathW
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by SarathW »

BrokenBones wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:55 am
SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:36 am In my opinion, the Early Buddhist sect went against the spirit of Kalama Sutta.
It is a disservice for the monks who are ordained in this Linage.
They discourage the monks to learn these valuable texts such as Abhidhamma, Commentaries, Visuddhimagga, Patisabidhamagga, etc.
Why can't they allow people to learn every possible thing and let them make up their own minds?
A greater disservice is to accept teachings which come much later and are not the words of the Buddha without taking a critical look at what they say.

Nobody is stopping anybody from learning whatever they want; articles like this are merely emphasising what the Buddha taught and what he didn't.

If people want to follow teachings that are not the Buddha's words then that is perfectly fine... just don't conflate the two... which is not fine at all.

And Bhante Sujato was spot on with his criticism of 'lineage' and the super duper titles that seem to be so important to certain groups in the Theravada tradition.
I am not talking about the article.
I am talking about the so-called EBT monks like Ajahn Braham who point-blank reject Abhidhamma.
Basically, a monk ordained under AB will not have any chance of learning Abhidhamma from AB.
All this EBT push is to promote their own political agenda.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
BrokenBones
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by BrokenBones »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:01 am
BrokenBones wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:55 am
SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:36 am In...
A greater disservice is to accept teachings which come much later and are not the words of the Buddha without taking a critical look at what they say.

Nobody is stopping anybody from learning whatever they want; articles like this are merely emphasising what the Buddha taught and what he didn't.

If people want to follow teachings that are not the Buddha's words then that is perfectly fine... just don't conflate the two... which is not fine at all...

I am not talking about the article.
I am talking about the so-called EBT monks like Ajahn Braham who point-blank reject Abhidhamma.
Basically, a monk ordained under AB will not have any chance of learning Abhidhamma from AB.
All this EBT push is to promote their own political agenda.
Well since this thread is about the article I would assume that this is what is under discussion; but I see you're bringing in your wider dissatisfaction with monks who think the Abhidhamma and commentaries are a bit dodgy.

I would assume that anybody contemplating the great step of ordination would spare a few moments investigating the monk who they are to seek ordination from 🤔

If somebody wants the Abhidhamma then I believe there are many monasteries where these teachings are thought useful... indeed, it appears that there are many monasteries where the suttas are reduced to a couple of suttas that purport to lend some legitimacy to the commentaries and the rest of teaching/meditation is pure Abhidhamma/commentaries... if people are so inclined then perhaps they could ordain there and not worry about the naughty EBT monks.

Political agenda? You'll have to elaborate.
thomaslaw
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by thomaslaw »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:40 am
thomaslaw wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:59 am
SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:36 am In my opinion, the Early Buddhist sect went against the spirit of Kalama Sutta.
It is a disservice for the monks who are ordained in this Linage.
They discourage the monks to learn these valuable texts such as Abhidhamma, Commentaries, Visuddhimagga, Patisabidhamagga, etc.
Why can't they allow people to learn every possible thing and let them make up their own minds?
So, the monks should study those texts critically, following the spirit of Kalama Sutta.
Exactly. Don't even take EBT as the ultimate truth.
EBT and commentaries are just guidelines and you have to practice and experience yourself.
Yes, EBT and commentaries are just texts, sectarian, not the words of the Buddha!
SarathW
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by SarathW »

thomaslaw wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:53 am
SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:40 am
thomaslaw wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:59 am

So, the monks should study those texts critically, following the spirit of Kalama Sutta.
Exactly. Don't even take EBT as the ultimate truth.
EBT and commentaries are just guidelines and you have to practice and experience yourself.
Yes, EBT and commentaries are just texts, sectarian, not the words of the Buddha!
Why do you call it sectarian?
Perhaps someone has compiled the words of the Buddha in their own words.
That does not mean they are worthless.
It is not easy to convey an idea with just only with words.
What many of us are doing is to understand Buddhas teaching by reading and debating but not practicing.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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