How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

[SarathW]

Theravada is very concerned about the kamma that is made at the time of death. It teaches that the last “thought moment” can determine the place of rebirth.

I was disappointed about the BS's knowledge of Kamma.
Isn't there EBT stories that people are reborn in a woeful state for a brief period due to their minor Kamma?
Isn't the last thought moment is only one of the factors for the rebirth. For instance, what would have happened to Devadatta if he took the refuge of Buddha just before his death?

[SarathW]

However, a period of transition or “in-between state” (antarabhava), was taught by most of the ancient schools of Buddhism.

Wow! This is news to me.
Isn't Antarabhava also another Bhava?

[Rather than a “re-linking consciousness” the EBTs speak of the “stream of consciousness” or the “onflowing consciousness” that flows from one life to the next. Rebirth is a process, like leaving a house, walking down the street, and entering another house./quote]
I agree with BS on this point. I am not fully convinced of Abhidhamma's mind moments. But the way I understand this is a late addition to Abhidhamma.

[SarathW]

Later Buddhism, including Theravada, commonly objectified the external object of revulsion as a woman’s body, and focussed the practice on overcoming sexual desire among monks.

Isn't there a story in early Buddhism about a monk having sex with a dead woman?
Obviously, nuns can't do this.

[BrokenBones]

Doesn't EBT contain the supernormal abilities of Buddha?

Yes... and it names the heavenly realms he visited. It doesn't mention him visiting other areas of India and definitely not Sri Lanka... these areas were obviously not optimum places to visit and hear the Dhamma at the time... I don't think he visited Manchester either.

Perhaps Buddha visited Sri Lanka but it is not optimal for him to mention it. It is like I am writing about my overseas trip and not mentioning the many small places I visited. It is impossible to write what Buddha did for 50 years in minute detail.

An actual overseas trip might just be worth mentioning though.
You do realise I could make the same nonsensical argument for the Buddha having visited Manchester?

[Coëmgenu]

Most Christianized European countries have medieval folklore about how Jesus or an apostle visited them and maybe even helped establish their monarchy. It's the same with this Sri Lankan folklore, IMO.

[Ceisiwr]

But... it does seem selective. The Buddha quite clearly teaches how metta is to be 'done' but Bhante seems open to later teachings such as the nose with anapanasati idea; parimukham is also mentioned with the metta instructions... 'Love thy nose'?

He argues the opposite.

[BrokenBones]

But... it does seem selective. The Buddha quite clearly teaches how metta is to be 'done' but Bhante seems open to later teachings such as the nose with anapanasati idea; parimukham is also mentioned with the metta instructions... 'Love thy nose'?

He argues the opposite.

Opposite to what?

[Ceisiwr]

But... it does seem selective. The Buddha quite clearly teaches how metta is to be 'done' but Bhante seems open to later teachings such as the nose with anapanasati idea; parimukham is also mentioned with the metta instructions... 'Love thy nose'?

He argues the opposite.

Opposite to what?

He argues that it’s “mindfulness in front” rather than “at the nose” partly because of the suttas you mentioned. If I recall he is also critical of the commentarial advice on how to practice loving-kindness etc, but I could be mistaking him there with Analaylo. Either way regarding anapanasati Ven. Sujato agrees with you.

[BrokenBones]

He argues the opposite.

Opposite to what?

He argues that it’s “mindfulness in front” rather than “at the nose” partly because of the suttas you mentioned. If I recall he is also critical of the commentarial advice on how to practice loving-kindness etc, but I could be mistaking him there with Analaylo. Either way regarding anapanasati Ven. Sujato agrees with you.

In the article he seems to make allowances for Vism. metta instructions and simply states that parimukham is obscure and contested rather than seeing the illogicality of it being nose/mouth; a bit like a Vism. path attainer having time to accept dana before the immediate fruition attainment.

I appreciate the aims of the article but it needs to be done without fear or favour.

[Ceisiwr]

Opposite to what?

He argues that it’s “mindfulness in front” rather than “at the nose” partly because of the suttas you mentioned. If I recall he is also critical of the commentarial advice on how to practice loving-kindness etc, but I could be mistaking him there with Analaylo. Either way regarding anapanasati Ven. Sujato agrees with you.

In the article he seems to make allowances for Vism. metta instructions and simply states that parimukham is obscure and contested rather than seeing the illogicality of it being nose/mouth; a bit like a Vism. path attainer having time to accept dana before the immediate fruition attainment.

I appreciate the aims of the article but it needs to be done without fear or favour.

I didn’t read the article in full, but in his other books and posts he argues against the “at the tip of the nose” interpretation.

[thomaslaw]

I wonder which scholar/s or text/s first states clearly that 'Early Buddhism' in history is not Pali or Theravada Buddhism? Most of scholars or Theravada Buddhists will simply consider Pali/Theravada Buddhism represents Early Buddhism. See pp. v-vi, viii-ix in the following book

[DNS]

I liked Bhante Sujato's essay. Very good, imo.

[BrokenBones]

I liked Bhante Sujato's essay. Very good, imo.

Agreed... but I still felt there was more... we all have our sacred cows. Nevertheless, it's heartening to see such undertakings. It's made me rethink the whole bhikkhuni issue... probably right & valid but poorly undertaken.

[SarathW]

I liked Bhante Sujato's essay. Very good, imo.

Perhaps you are correct but what is Early Buddhism and who brought that to Sri Lanka?
I don't think Ven. Sujato defines Early Buddhism properly.
He also failed to differentiate them properly in his comments. For instance, the mind moment is the product of Abhidhamma. If you reject mind moments then no point of talking about the subcategories of it in his article.
Is that Mihidu there brought the Tipitaka but Early Buddhist people do not want to accept some parts of the Tipitaka such as Abhidhamma, Visuudhimagga, and commentaries?

[SarathW]

The idea is that the world may be reduced to a finite and classifiable set of discrete “phenomena” (dhammas), which are listed in the Abhidhamma texts and commentaries.

I think Ven Sujato does not have a good grasp of Abhidhamma. When Abhidhamma describes there are 89 or 121 types of consciousness etc. It does not mean there are only 121 or 89 types or 52 types of Sankhara.
Once you know this division then you can work out any mental state on[media][/media] your own. This has to be considered as a tool or a formula. This analysis is no different from the analysis of Dependent Origination.
It appears Bhante Sujato is bogged down in categories.