Chronological order of the Suttas

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Chronological order of the Suttas

Post by DooDoot »

Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:55 pm
From a missionary point of view, the astounding statement that a commentary on Buddha's discourses existed during his lifetime, and was rehearsed along with those discourses at the First Great Council, appears so improbable and unnatural...
The above does not appear to be rocket science. It appears clear from the viewpoint of realisation:

1. the earliest sermons are the core supramundane of the SN

2. the repetitions in the SN are probably later

3. the MN embellishments (such as grandiose intros, eg. MN 22, MN 38, MN 118, etc) are probably later yet rooted in the core of the SN

4. the DN is very late, with emphasis upon mythology, past Buddhas, consciousness entering mother's womb with clear-comprehension, etc. this includes similar MN suttas, such as MN 50, MN 81, MN 123, etc

5. the AN is very late or, otherwise, more likely a compilation over time, being a mixture of old & new (eg. AN 9.12; variations on jhanas & samatha-vipassana) stuff compiled in numerical format

6. there appears no evidence the Pārāyaṇa & Aṭṭhaka are old just because they use older poetic language. these are merely teachings given in brief to non-Buddhists, which is why they are explained in detail in other texts

7. MN 135 appears late, being uncharacteristic of the Buddha's teachings about kamma

8. the SN has a few suttas out of place there (such as SN 12.51, which appears clearly illogical Abhidhamma) or one single equivalent to AN 9.12. when there are multiple suttas of a certain genre in the AN, such as the AN 9.12 genre, and merely one single equivalent in the SN, the strong impression is of a later sutta or doctrine inserted into the SN

9. of course it has been well pointed out how MN 111, MN 117, etc, contain later language (despite these suttas not being doctrinally erroneous)
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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thomaslaw
Posts: 812
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:55 am
Location: Australia

Re: Chronological order of the Suttas

Post by thomaslaw »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:47 pm
Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:55 pm
From a missionary point of view, the astounding statement that a commentary on Buddha's discourses existed during his lifetime, and was rehearsed along with those discourses at the First Great Council, appears so improbable and unnatural...
The above does not appear to be rocket science. It appears clear from the viewpoint of realisation:

1. the earliest sermons are the core supramundane of the SN

2. the repetitions in the SN are probably later

3. the MN embellishments (such as grandiose intros, eg. MN 22, MN 38, MN 118, etc) are probably later yet rooted in the core of the SN

4. the DN is very late, with emphasis upon mythology, past Buddhas, consciousness entering mother's womb with clear-comprehension, etc. this includes similar MN suttas, such as MN 50, MN 81, MN 123, etc

5. the AN is very late or, otherwise, more likely a compilation over time, being a mixture of old & new (eg. AN 9.12; variations on jhanas & samatha-vipassana) stuff compiled in numerical format

6. there appears no evidence the Pārāyaṇa & Aṭṭhaka are old just because they use older poetic language. these are merely teachings given in brief to non-Buddhists, which is why they are explained in detail in other texts

7. MN 135 appears late, being uncharacteristic of the Buddha's teachings about kamma

8. the SN has a few suttas out of place there (such as SN 12.51, which appears clearly illogical Abhidhamma) or one single equivalent to AN 9.12. when there are multiple suttas of a certain genre in the AN, such as the AN 9.12 genre, and merely one single equivalent in the SN, the strong impression is of a later sutta or doctrine inserted into the SN

9. of course it has been well pointed out how MN 111, MN 117, etc, contain later language (despite these suttas not being doctrinally erroneous)
Your viewpoints on the structure and content of the Pali texts to some extent fit in closely with Ven. YinShun on the formation of EBTs:

viewtopic.php?p=726742#p726742
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Chronological order of the Suttas

Post by Pulsar »

Thomaslaw brought us DooDoot's contribution, from a couple of years ago. Thank you. As good as DooDoot was in thinking on his own feet (I loved this about him) some things tripped him.
Let me point out one, from the above list 
6. there appears no evidence the Pārāyaṇa & Aṭṭhaka are old just because they use older poetic language. these are merely teachings given in brief to non-Buddhists, which is why they are explained in detail in other texts 
This was a theory put forward by Tillman Vetter, which a couple of popular scholars repeated, along with DooDoot.
Was DooDoot repeating Vetter or these other scholars i dont know?
As good as Vetter was, in his presentation that Arupa samapathis was not Buddha's teaching, here is one instance where he made a grave error.  Scholars make mistakes. It seems he was in the process of researching it? and this was a premature conclusion.
I was planning to address this later in my new post on Atthakavagga. A discussion of this nature takes time.
viewtopic.php?t=45224

Dear thomaslaw: Do you agree with DooDoot's comment on Atthakavagga and Parayanavagga?
With love :candle:
kmdesai1965
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2023 5:32 am

Re: Chronological order of the Suttas

Post by kmdesai1965 »

1. The simple statements of Buddhist doctrine now found, in identical words, in paragraphs or verses recurring in all the books.
Is there a compiled list of the recurring simple statements?

:namaste:
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