Are most Western monks trolls?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

dharmacorps wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:46 pm Beyond being a probable intentional incitement-type behavior in its own right, the OP's question conflates Christianity with Buddhism, and regional biases with political biases, and his own doubts about the motivation of others as others motivational shortcomings. On the face of it, the question doesn't make sense beyond an incitement, to me at least.
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DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Ontheway wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:49 pm It doesn't matter if the monks are western or Asian, as long as they practising and preaching Saddhamma, then they are good monks.
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DooDoot
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by DooDoot »

Ontheway wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:49 pm It doesn't matter if the monks are western or Asian, as long as they practising and preaching Saddhamma, then they are good monks.
What is Saddhamma? :shrug:
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:44 am
Ontheway wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:49 pm It doesn't matter if the monks are western or Asian, as long as they practising and preaching Saddhamma, then they are good monks.
What is Saddhamma? :shrug:

it means good or true dhamma.
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DooDoot
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by DooDoot »

Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:47 am it means good or true dhamma.
Thank you Bhikkhu. Obviously with the various sects & gurus in Buddhism the above is subject to debate. Kind regards :)
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TRobinson465
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by TRobinson465 »

I dont think theres any such conspiracy or trolling going on.

Western liberals tend to like multi-culturalism and exploring different cultures, Western conservatives tend to be nationalistic and embracing of thier own culture. Therefore, Buddhism tends to attract people who are politically liberal, since it falls into the former category.

https://www.pewforum.org/religious-land ... /buddhist/

So it would make sense that lots of western monks are themselves liberal. Granted you are talking about sexually liberal people (although you really shoulda just said that in the original post), but people who are politically liberal are more likely to be sexually liberal, so that would just be a byproduct of this trend.
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samseva
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by samseva »

This maybe has to do with the perceived topic at hand... ?
Projection is the defense mechanism by which unacceptable psychological impulses and traits in oneself are attributed to others.
Most importantly, considering likely the OP doesn't personally know Western monks—other than reading and exchanging written text, on the Internet (and that text being displayed on a computer screen), and that only a handful of Western monks actually spend time on Internet forums—such comments are likely in large part OP's own biases.
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:54 am
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:47 am it means good or true dhamma.
Thank you Bhikkhu. Obviously with the various sects & gurus in Buddhism the above is subject to debate. Kind regards :)
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by Alino »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:22 am
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:23 am The Dhamma, entrance to the way of liberation.
Sorry but people who believe in & thus participate in casual sex cannot gain entrance to the way of liberation.
Alino wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:50 amWhat do you mean by libéral?
Our discussion was about casual sex where our novice monk DiamondNgXZ appears to believe is non-harmful that women have casual sex. "Liberal" means "sexual liberal", as the Buddha appeared to condemn in DN 31.
There are, young householder, these six evil consequences in associating with evil companions, namely: any gambler, any libertine, any drunkard, any swindler, any cheat, any rowdy is his friend and companion.

DN 31
Thank you for clarifications 🙏😊
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:22 am Sorry but people who believe in & thus participate in casual sex cannot gain entrance to the way of liberation.
I'm not sure what DiamondNgXZ means by "entrance to the way of liberation", but my understanding is that's it's one of the intermediate levels of nobility (non-returner, from memory?) from which someone would definitely no longer have sex.

Is there any evidence to suggest that "casual sex" specifically prohibits stream-entry?

Metta,
Paul. :)
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DooDoot
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by DooDoot »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:07 amIs there any evidence to suggest that "casual sex" specifically prohibits stream-entry?
If it lead to stream-entry the Buddha would have praised it. In DN 31 & SN 4.55, the Buddha obviously included "sexual fidelity" within the sphere of "ethics" or "morality".

Casual sex is an absence metta, absence of concern (ottappa), absence of non-harming, absence of self-control, absence of virtue about how to relate to others; therefore major hindrance to the concentration required for stream-entry. Have you never noticed the burning squealing padakas? :|
And we will have the ethical conduct loved by the noble ones … leading to immersion.’ That’s how you should train yourselves.”

“Sir, these four factors of stream-entry that were taught by the Buddha are found in us, and we embody them.

https://suttacentral.net/sn55.53/en/sujato
Monks, these two bright qualities guard the world. Which two? Conscience & concern. If these two bright qualities did not guard the world... the world would be immersed in promiscuity, like rams with goats, roosters with pigs, or dogs with jackals.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There are, young householder, these six evil consequences in associating with evil companions, namely: any gambler, any libertine, any drunkard, any swindler, any cheat, any rowdy is his friend and companion.

DN 31
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:26 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by DooDoot »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:13 am SN 4.55
AN 4.55
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:07 am Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:22 am Sorry but people who believe in & thus participate in casual sex cannot gain entrance to the way of liberation.
I'm not sure what DiamondNgXZ means by "entrance to the way of liberation", but my understanding is that's it's one of the intermediate levels of nobility (non-returner, from memory?) from which someone would definitely no longer have sex.

Is there any evidence to suggest that "casual sex" specifically prohibits stream-entry?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Thanks.

Yup, stream entry is what's meant. It's too harsh to disqualify people from that just because of political/liberal/sexual views. What's really disqualifying is actually the committing of the 5 evil heavy kammas.

The issue is actually quite subtle, if some people took it the wrong way, they might think that liberal sex is encouraged. However, I don't encourage liberal sex, there's harm, which DooDoot conveniently forgets, I pointed out STD and unwanted pregnancy, which both by themselves can lead to mental suffering.

The issue is: what's minimum for noble 8fold path to reach stream winning, what's extra, which is good, but can be delayed until later. Latest, arahants would certainly not have sex, or gamble.

Let's use casual sex and gambling. This is what I asked my teacher:
Dear Bhante,

According to Bhante Aggacitta’s book: https://sasanarakkha.org/2010/11/01/imp ... -virtuous/

It seems that the 3rd precept doesn’t forbid prostitutes, casual sex, premarital sex as long as both sides are single, consensual etc. Consistent with liberal sex attitudes.

However, there could be some advice like DN 31, Sigalovada Sutta which says women (I think prostitutes) is one of the downfalls. When we present the range of 3rd precept, it could be easily misunderstood that we promote liberal sex attitudes. Should we say that conservative attitudes is recommended like gambling is not recommended, but it’s not within the scope of the precepts?

Edit: The importance of the distinction is what’s the boundaries covered by the noble 8fold path. Can a lay person gamble (if gambling is not prohibited by right livelihood), have casual sex (not prohibited by right action) (and attend a lot of retreats) and still attain to stream entering?
This is what he replied:
It seems that the 3rd precept doesn’t forbid prostitutes, casual sex, premarital sex as long as both sides are single, consensual etc. Consistent with liberal sex attitudes.
indeed
Should we say that conservative attitudes is recommended like gambling is not recommended, but it’s not within the scope of the precepts?
I think that’s a good way of looking at it, yes.
Not everything that is allowable is therefore good to do. Just as the speed limit on a road doesn’t mean to say that one always has to drive a max. speed. In fact, that would be quite dangerous when driving at night, or around a tight curve.

Clearly, the regular visit of prostitutes will not help one to overcome sense/sexual desires. Also, it is generally looked down upon by society at large, wherefore one’s reputation would suffer on account of frequent association with prostitutes.
Can a lay person gamble (if gambling is not prohibited by right livelihood), have casual sex (not prohibited by right action) (and attend a lot of retreats) and still attain to stream entering?
Yes, that’s possible; but stream-entry cannot be attained at the time of gambling or having casual sex; or even “conservative” sex for that matter. :wink:

These are all obstacles to stream entry, but they are surmountable obstacles. If on a later occasion the mind is free from these obstacles, then the gates to stream-entry are potentially open.
That’s why even people with severe ethical misconduct in the past, nonetheless managed to attain paths and fruits (e.g. the killer Angulimala; the alcohololic Sarakani etc.).
As we had seen, wrong understanding of this issue can lead to unfair discrimination against liberals on their potential for enlightenment (stream winning). Ultimately, the arahant gives up both conservative and liberal views in politics, gives up sex completely.


On the noble virtue the stream winner has: https://suttacentral.net/sn12.41/en/bodhi from this sutta it could be inferred that it refers to the 5 precepts. That's why to understand the range of 3rd precept is quite important.

https://suttacentral.net/kp5/en/soni Mangala Sutta has the Buddha praised:
Mother, father well supporting,
Wife and children duly cherishing,
Doesn't mean that they are needed to attain to stream winning. Monastics don't marry or support their wife, children, mother father (unless there's no one else supporting them). Thus we should clearly distinguish the teachings which leads to happiness in the here and now for lay people, and the teachings which are part of the noble 8fold path which leads to Nibbana.
Alino wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:44 pm
Having said all that, it's more of the common Buddhist progress is that a Buddhist who gambles and engage in casual sex, usually abandoned these first before going into training for the higher virtues, higher meditation, higher wisdom. The above is more of an exercise in detailed Dhamma clarification. I actually feel sorry for the USA teens and youths who has such high pressure from their culture to lose their virginity so young, and before marriage.
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by bpallister »

i don't think Bhikkhu Bodhi or Thanissaro Bhikkhu or Ajahn Sona are trolls. I'm less familiar with other Western monks.
Ontheway
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Re: Are most Western monks trolls?

Post by Ontheway »

Not familiar with other western monks.

But definitely not Bhikkhu Bodhi. He is a great Pali scholar, a good translator, a good buddhist teacher, and a peaceful monk.

But there are some western monks I definitely won't listen to. Maybe I can't see any good from their teachings. But that just my personal experience.
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