Monks only with a yellow thread?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
BrokenBones
Posts: 778
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:20 am

Re: Monks only with a yellow thread?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:48 am
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:03 am
Ontheway wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:03 am

If you want to compare the fruit of this Sangha Dana to the level of Dana for regular person, then it can be said fruitful.

But a Dana for Sangha member should yield the best result of all. Certainly this faulty monk has "robbed the pious devotees."
"In times to come there will be members of the spiritual family merely by virtue of wearing ocher cloth around their necks; but they are unethical and of bad character. People will give gifts to those unethical people in the name of the Saṅgha. Even then, I say, a religious donation bestowed on the Saṅgha is incalculable and immeasurable. But I say that there is no way a personal offering can be more fruitful than one bestowed on a Saṅgha."

https://suttacentral.net/mn142/en/sujat ... ript=latin
But here wasn't make Dana to Sangha (as a whole), just Phra Julian.

For my case, for many years when I make Dana to a particular monk, I would say "it is for the Sangha", taking the particular monk as mere symbol for the Sangha community.
That's all it takes for the dana to be for the whole sangha and even if the people who gave to this monk didn't have that thought in their minds, there would still be huge merit.

The monk was part of the Buddha's sangha and what it represents... regardless of his own behaviour. I take it the dana stopped when he was 'discovered'.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 5281
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Monks only with a yellow thread?

Post by confusedlayman »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:14 am
Ontheway wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:48 am
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:03 am

"In times to come there will be members of the spiritual family merely by virtue of wearing ocher cloth around their necks; but they are unethical and of bad character. People will give gifts to those unethical people in the name of the Saṅgha. Even then, I say, a religious donation bestowed on the Saṅgha is incalculable and immeasurable. But I say that there is no way a personal offering can be more fruitful than one bestowed on a Saṅgha."

https://suttacentral.net/mn142/en/sujat ... ript=latin
But here wasn't make Dana to Sangha (as a whole), just Phra Julian.

For my case, for many years when I make Dana to a particular monk, I would say "it is for the Sangha", taking the particular monk as mere symbol for the Sangha community.
That's all it takes for the dana to be for the whole sangha and even if the people who gave to this monk didn't have that thought in their minds, there would still be huge merit.

The monk was part of the Buddha's sangha and what it represents... regardless of his own behaviour. I take it the dana stopped when he was 'discovered'.
He lost his monkhood when he had intercourse after monk ordination...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 18825
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Monks only with a yellow thread?

Post by mikenz66 »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:14 am That's all it takes for the dana to be for the whole sangha and even if the people who gave to this monk didn't have that thought in their minds, there would still be huge merit.
Well, yes, in that sort situation, it might be be helpful to rationalize like that. However, the experience would be devastating for most of the supporters, and would make some question why they bothered, and why they should bother in the future. That's why such scandals are so damaging.

:heart:
Mike
BrokenBones
Posts: 778
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:20 am

Re: Monks only with a yellow thread?

Post by BrokenBones »

mikenz66 wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:46 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:14 am That's all it takes for the dana to be for the whole sangha and even if the people who gave to this monk didn't have that thought in their minds, there would still be huge merit.
Well, yes, in that sort situation, it might be be helpful to rationalize like that. However, the experience would be devastating for most of the supporters, and would make some question why they bothered, and why they should bother in the future. That's why such scandals are so damaging.

:heart:
Mike
Hi mike

I'm not rationalising... it's what the Buddha said.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 18825
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Monks only with a yellow thread?

Post by mikenz66 »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:08 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:46 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:14 am That's all it takes for the dana to be for the whole sangha and even if the people who gave to this monk didn't have that thought in their minds, there would still be huge merit.
Well, yes, in that sort situation, it might be be helpful to rationalize like that. However, the experience would be devastating for most of the supporters, and would make some question why they bothered, and why they should bother in the future. That's why such scandals are so damaging.

:heart:
Mike
Hi mike

I'm not rationalising... it's what the Buddha said.
Well, not being awakened and all, I'd certainly be upset if I were them, and it would be easy in that circumstance to lose faith in the entire sangha, in spite of such assurances. That's why such behavior needs to be called out.

Mike
BrokenBones
Posts: 778
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:20 am

Re: Monks only with a yellow thread?

Post by BrokenBones »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:34 am
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:08 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:46 pm
Well, yes, in that sort situation, it might be be helpful to rationalize like that. However, the experience would be devastating for most of the supporters, and would make some question why they bothered, and why they should bother in the future. That's why such scandals are so damaging.

:heart:
Mike
Hi mike

I'm not rationalising... it's what the Buddha said.
Well, not being awakened and all, I'd certainly be upset if I were them, and it would be easy in that circumstance to lose faith in the entire sangha, in spite of such assurances. That's why such behavior needs to be called out.

Mike
Of course it needs to be called out but it still doesn't change the Buddha's teaching. Maybe if they're upset and on the verge of losing faith they should read/listen to the above sutta... I don't think one needs to be awakened to actually investigate the 'religion' one espouses faith in.

If an individual does lose faith then that is terrible kamma for the monk but infinitely worse for the individual who loses faith... if the Buddha's assurances aren't enough for them then...???? :shrug:
TRobinson465
Posts: 981
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Monks only with a yellow thread?

Post by TRobinson465 »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:04 am
SarathW wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:11 am Monks only with a yellow thread?
It appears in the future after the degeneration of Dhamma only the monks are identified by a person ties a yellow thread to his wrist.
What is the Sutta reference for this? Perhaps it is in Dhathu Vibhanga Sutta.

"In times to come there will be members of the spiritual family merely by virtue of wearing ocher cloth around their necks; but they are unethical and of bad character. People will give gifts to those unethical people in the name of the Saṅgha. Even then, I say, a religious donation bestowed on the Saṅgha is incalculable and immeasurable. But I say that there is no way a personal offering can be more fruitful than one bestowed on a Saṅgha."


https://suttacentral.net/mn142/en/sujat ... ript=latin
I feel like this is just a saying of the time. like "white clad lay followers" not really meaning all wearing white.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
BrokenBones
Posts: 778
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:20 am

Re: Monks only with a yellow thread?

Post by BrokenBones »

TRobinson465 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:38 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:04 am
SarathW wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:11 am Monks only with a yellow thread?
It appears in the future after the degeneration of Dhamma only the monks are identified by a person ties a yellow thread to his wrist.
What is the Sutta reference for this? Perhaps it is in Dhathu Vibhanga Sutta.

"In times to come there will be members of the spiritual family merely by virtue of wearing ocher cloth around their necks; but they are unethical and of bad character. People will give gifts to those unethical people in the name of the Saṅgha. Even then, I say, a religious donation bestowed on the Saṅgha is incalculable and immeasurable. But I say that there is no way a personal offering can be more fruitful than one bestowed on a Saṅgha."


https://suttacentral.net/mn142/en/sujat ... ript=latin
I feel like this is just a saying of the time. like "white clad lay followers" not really meaning all wearing white.
As far as I know 'white clad lay followers' did indeed wear white (as many do today)... unless there is evidence to say otherwise.

Having said that, perhaps the ochre coloured neckerchief may indeed refer to a any single piece of ochre coloured cloth worn about the body eg belt, headscarf, hat, wrist etc.
TRobinson465
Posts: 981
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Monks only with a yellow thread?

Post by TRobinson465 »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:19 am
TRobinson465 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:38 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:04 am

"In times to come there will be members of the spiritual family merely by virtue of wearing ocher cloth around their necks; but they are unethical and of bad character. People will give gifts to those unethical people in the name of the Saṅgha. Even then, I say, a religious donation bestowed on the Saṅgha is incalculable and immeasurable. But I say that there is no way a personal offering can be more fruitful than one bestowed on a Saṅgha."


https://suttacentral.net/mn142/en/sujat ... ript=latin
I feel like this is just a saying of the time. like "white clad lay followers" not really meaning all wearing white.
As far as I know 'white clad lay followers' did indeed wear white (as many do today)... unless there is evidence to say otherwise.

Having said that, perhaps the ochre coloured neckerchief may indeed refer to a any single piece of ochre coloured cloth worn about the body eg belt, headscarf, hat, wrist etc.
It was the predominant color, not the only color. just as "yellow robes" means robes of a bhikkhu even though not all bhikkhus wore "yellow" robes. some wore bark colored robes for instance.

viewtopic.php?t=40156
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
TRobinson465
Posts: 981
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Monks only with a yellow thread?

Post by TRobinson465 »

I should also clarify my prior statement. When I said white clad followers being an expression. I mean that it is analogous to the yellow colored cloth probably not meaning strictly yellow. Not the cloth around the neck part. I would say the cloth around the neck is simply an expression similar to the "clothes on ur back" expression in English. And that it just means those who wear the "yellow" monks robes. the specified color was just a generalization like the white clad followers.

So I think he's saying people r being recognized as monks simply cuz of the robes they wear rather than their behavior.
This is just my own ignorant speculation.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 14382
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Monks only with a yellow thread?

Post by DNS »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:04 am
SarathW wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:11 am Monks only with a yellow thread?
It appears in the future after the degeneration of Dhamma only the monks are identified by a person ties a yellow thread to his wrist.
What is the Sutta reference for this? Perhaps it is in Dhathu Vibhanga Sutta.

"In times to come there will be members of the spiritual family merely by virtue of wearing ocher cloth around their necks; but they are unethical and of bad character. People will give gifts to those unethical people in the name of the Saṅgha. Even then, I say, a religious donation bestowed on the Saṅgha is incalculable and immeasurable. But I say that there is no way a personal offering can be more fruitful than one bestowed on a Saṅgha."


https://suttacentral.net/mn142/en/sujat ... ript=latin
It sounds like it's referring to monks of bad and unethical character, which we do see today (and of course in lay people too).

It could also mean that a mere thread around the neck is about all that's left of their adherence to rules (allegory) or that they no longer even wear robes but still call themselves monks. We see that today in some traditions where the priests and teachers are dressed more like lay people (although they don't take celibacy precepts) and are married with children.
Post Reply