Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 14476
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by DNS »

EmptyShadow wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:42 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:50 am A Sotapanna can't bring himself/herself to deprive a life knowingly. If he/she did so, then definitely not a Sotapanna.
Taking someone else's life is not the same as taking your own life. There are examples in the suttas about enlightened ones, including arahants, who ended their own lives. For example: Channa, Vakkali, Santati the King's Minister
Yes, it could be argued that he did self-inflicted euthanasia. However, the reports in the suttas of those who "took the knife" were arahants, nothing left to be done. If he was still a sotapanna, then he still had further to go. And then there are Commentary reports that those who took the knife gained arahantship after they used the knife (as they were dying).
User avatar
Ontheway
Posts: 1489
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by Ontheway »

EmptyShadow wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:42 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:50 am A Sotapanna can't bring himself/herself to deprive a life knowingly. If he/she did so, then definitely not a Sotapanna.
Taking someone else's life is not the same as taking your own life. There are examples in the suttas about enlightened ones, including arahants, who ended their own lives. For example: Channa, Vakkali, Santati the King's Minister
It is the same. And I don't think Buddha endorse suicide either.

And should not compare Nanavira with Arahants. After all, they are Arahants without defilements and blameless. But Nanavira is not. Far from it.
"The Buddha is like the rising sun; the Dhamma as already stated is like the web of his rays; and the Sangha is like the world rid by him of darkness."

Paramatthajotikā
(The Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning)
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 7755
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by SDC »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:19 am I was just querying the statement which suggested that such with sexuality are rare. As I understand it, this is a relatively common problem, and many bhikkhus disrobe for just this reason.

:heart:
Mike
Seems to me that a diagnosis at the time was rare. Perhaps that was what was meant. Nevertheless I just used your comment to fill in the blanks before something less reliable was said (not that yours was :anjali: ).
“By breaking the root of unknowing, it smashes the mechanism of deeds, and drops the thunderbolt of knowledge on the taking up of consciousnesses.” Thag 6.8
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 18895
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by mikenz66 »

SDC wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:48 am
mikenz66 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:19 am I was just querying the statement which suggested that such with sexuality are rare. As I understand it, this is a relatively common problem, and many bhikkhus disrobe for just this reason.

:heart:
Mike
Seems to me that a diagnosis at the time was rare. Perhaps that was what was meant. Nevertheless I just used your comment to fill in the blanks before something less reliable was said (not that yours was :anjali: ).
Perhaps such problems were not discussed much outside of the monastic sangha at the time...

:heart:
Mike
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 4509
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by robertk »

EmptyShadow wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:42 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:50 am A Sotapanna can't bring himself/herself to deprive a life knowingly. If he/she did so, then definitely not a Sotapanna.
Taking someone else's life is not the same as taking your own life. There are examples in the suttas about enlightened ones, including arahants, who ended their own lives. For example: Channa, Vakkali, Santati the King's Minister
As DNS noted according to the Commentary the bhikkhus attained after using the knife.
Santati never committed suicide; his life span was up and he was able to know this and had the ability to die in such a way.
http://www.abhidhamma.org
https://dhamma.discoursehosting.net/
https://www.youtube.com/user/AlanWeller
MN 26 Pāsarāsisuttaṃ
Pāli: So kho ahaṃ, bhikkhave, tāvatakeneva oṭṭhapahatamattena lapitalāpanamattena ñāṇavādañca vadāmi theravādañca, ‘jānāmi passāmī’ti ca paṭijānāmi ahañceva aññe ca.
Cmy: Theravādanti thirabhāvavādaṃ, thero ahametthāti etaṃ vacanaṃ.
Lombardi4
Posts: 1551
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:53 pm

Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by Lombardi4 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:45 pm
Lombardi4 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:44 pm He did NOT commit suicide.
How then did he die?
He died of a severe sickness.
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 7755
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by SDC »

Lombardi4 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:53 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:45 pm
Lombardi4 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:44 pm He did NOT commit suicide.
How then did he die?
He died of a severe sickness.
I’m not here to again suggest you present some evidence for your claim. I’m here to tell people that if they want to know the story to read his biography or watch the documentary on YouTube - all accounts of those who were there.

Edit: S, I didn’t remember your name change until now. Nevertheless, it would be helpful if you didn’t just post your opinion on the matter. There are firsthand accounts of how he was discovered in his kuti.
“By breaking the root of unknowing, it smashes the mechanism of deeds, and drops the thunderbolt of knowledge on the taking up of consciousnesses.” Thag 6.8
SarathW
Posts: 17594
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by SarathW »

Ontheway wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:32 pm https://www.pressreader.com/sri-lanka/d ... 1207250413

Apparently he took his life not because of the illness of amoebiasis, but rather unable to calm down his craving for sex. A tragedy indeed. :candle: :candle: :candle:
However Ven Nanavira Thera wrote lengthily and cautiously on Dhamma, his health issues, and suicide, especially in his regular correspondence with friends, which divulged the truth, the real reason for his decision. It was not the severity of the amoebiasis; but a very unusual and extremely rare physical discomfort called satyriasis.
This the first time I heard of this! :o
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Ontheway
Posts: 1489
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by Ontheway »

SarathW wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:55 am
Ontheway wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:32 pm https://www.pressreader.com/sri-lanka/d ... 1207250413

Apparently he took his life not because of the illness of amoebiasis, but rather unable to calm down his craving for sex. A tragedy indeed. :candle: :candle: :candle:
However Ven Nanavira Thera wrote lengthily and cautiously on Dhamma, his health issues, and suicide, especially in his regular correspondence with friends, which divulged the truth, the real reason for his decision. It was not the severity of the amoebiasis; but a very unusual and extremely rare physical discomfort called satyriasis.
This the first time I heard of this! :o
Be it illness or satyriasis, it was a tragedy indeed. I wonder which plane of existence he will be going to.
"The Buddha is like the rising sun; the Dhamma as already stated is like the web of his rays; and the Sangha is like the world rid by him of darkness."

Paramatthajotikā
(The Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning)
SarathW
Posts: 17594
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by SarathW »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:04 am
SarathW wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:55 am
Ontheway wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:32 pm https://www.pressreader.com/sri-lanka/d ... 1207250413

Apparently he took his life not because of the illness of amoebiasis, but rather unable to calm down his craving for sex. A tragedy indeed. :candle: :candle: :candle:

This the first time I heard of this! :o
Be it illness or satyriasis, it was a tragedy indeed. I wonder which plane of existence he will be going to.
This is a weird story. How come such a ill person had satyriasis.
Do you think they found another Viagra?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 5332
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by confusedlayman »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:04 am
SarathW wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:55 am
Ontheway wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:32 pm https://www.pressreader.com/sri-lanka/d ... 1207250413

Apparently he took his life not because of the illness of amoebiasis, but rather unable to calm down his craving for sex. A tragedy indeed. :candle: :candle: :candle:

This the first time I heard of this! :o
Be it illness or satyriasis, it was a tragedy indeed. I wonder which plane of existence he will be going to.
He didnt break precept and lived as monk ... even unenlightened people who live with vinaya rules intact can go to brahma world... but he is sotapanna and he is head to heaven
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
Ontheway
Posts: 1489
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by Ontheway »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:29 am
Ontheway wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:04 am
SarathW wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:55 am
This the first time I heard of this! :o
Be it illness or satyriasis, it was a tragedy indeed. I wonder which plane of existence he will be going to.
He didnt break precept and lived as monk ... even unenlightened people who live with vinaya rules intact can go to brahma world... but he is sotapanna and he is head to heaven
Alright. If that is what you believe, so be it.

I don't think just by keeping Vinaya rules can get to Brahma world. Only meditation such as Brahmavihara can get to reborn there.
"The Buddha is like the rising sun; the Dhamma as already stated is like the web of his rays; and the Sangha is like the world rid by him of darkness."

Paramatthajotikā
(The Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning)
User avatar
Ontheway
Posts: 1489
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by Ontheway »

SarathW wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:24 am
Ontheway wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:04 am
SarathW wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:55 am
This the first time I heard of this! :o
Be it illness or satyriasis, it was a tragedy indeed. I wonder which plane of existence he will be going to.
This is a weird story. How come such a ill person had satyriasis.
Do you think they found another Viagra?
I think it was his body or psychological condition. It seems another nun also claimed to be a Sotapanna by him, who later had a mental breakdown and disrobed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister_Vajir%C4%81

I respect them as a fellow human, but I wouldn't put my bet on these two persons to learn Dhamma. Too risky.
"The Buddha is like the rising sun; the Dhamma as already stated is like the web of his rays; and the Sangha is like the world rid by him of darkness."

Paramatthajotikā
(The Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning)
SarathW
Posts: 17594
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by SarathW »

I wouldn't put my bet on these two persons to learn Dhamma. Too risky.
Did Ven, Nanavira teach anything contray to Tipitaka?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 15428
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by Ceisiwr »

SarathW wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:23 pm
I wouldn't put my bet on these two persons to learn Dhamma. Too risky.
Did Ven, Nanavira teach anything contray to Tipitaka?
Yes.
“When your last breath arrives, Grammar can do nothing.”

Ādi Śaṅkarācāryaḥ
Post Reply