Who can't become a monk or nun?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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tellyontellyon
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Who can't become a monk or nun?

Post by tellyontellyon »

What are the rules that would block certain individuals from becoming a monk or nun?
Can a person with a criminal record become a monk or nun?
:hello:
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Re: Who can't become a monk or nun?

Post by martinfrank »

tellyontellyon wrote:What are the rules that would block certain individuals from becoming a monk or nun?
Can a person with a criminal record become a monk or nun?
:hello:
Hello!

Look at Angulimalo http://www.leighb.com/mn86.htm

Whether a criminal record will be taken in account depends on the country. In Thailand, you can come out of prison and ordain on the same day.... and many do because they don't want to be gangsters again.

There are 32'000 monasteries in Thailand, and thousands more in Laos, Cambodia, Myanmar, SriLanka and many other countries. There is no uniform rule. It depends on the Abbot or Head Monk or Teacher. If you are serious, it won't be difficult. In Thailand, many monasteries are taking care of no-good-boys, and there are many monks with tattoos from former gang life.

Watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJcn8SRQNoM

Whatever you did before, it is a good idea to become a monk for a short time, for a long time or for life. Each step in the right direction is a step forward.

I wish you good luck! May all beings be happy!

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Ben
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Re: Who can't become a monk or nun?

Post by Ben »

This might be relevant to your enquiry:
The integration procedure
The procedure of integration in the saṃgha basically consists on a few questions. This requires the presence of at least ten bhikkhus of pure sīla (five are enough if this takes outside the Majjhima region), and with at least ten years of seniority. The bhikkhus and the sāmaṇera (future bhikkhu) take their place in the sīmā, which must be well prepared. The preamble of the procedure and the three sections of the kammavācā must be articulated clearly, respecting the pronunciation scrupulously.
There are bhikkhus who could enter the saṃgha exclusively to benefit from care by doctors who provide free health care to the bhikkhus. Others could enter to elude legal obligations. To avoid problems of this type, in the first part of the procedure the postulant is asked fifteen questions, which he must be able to answer satisfactorily in order to be accepted.
The 15 questions asked to whom wish integrate the saṃgha
Questions: Answers:
Questions: Answers:
Do you have leprosy? No, Venerable
Do you have boils? No, Venerable
Do you have eczema? No, Venerable
Do you have tuberculosis? No, Venerable
Do you have epilepsy? No, Venerable
Are you a human being? Yes, Venerable
Are you a man? Yes, Venerable
Are you a free man? Yes, Venerable
Are you free from debts? Yes, Venerable
Are you free from government service? Yes, Venerable
Do you have your parents' permission? Yes, Venerable
Are you at least 20 years of age? Yes, Venerable
Do you have your bowl and your robes? Yes, Venerable
What is your name? My name is Naga
What is the name of your preceptor? My preceptor is the Venerable Tissa
Note: During the procedure, the postulant and the preceptor provisionally take the names of Naga and Tissa (respectively).
If the postulant is able to answer as indicated above, he can enter the saṃgha. It is as simple as this. After this, the integration procedure can continue, the preceptor gives the new bhikkhu the essential instructions, which are the four offences entailing the loss of the bhikkhu status. See "The 4 pārājika".

-- http://en.dhammadana.org/sangha/monks/become.htm
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acinteyyo
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Re: Who can't become a monk or nun?

Post by acinteyyo »

check out "The Buddhist Monastic Code" page 188 -> "Disqualifications" for further explanation.
BMC II wrote:Disqualifications. The factors that would disqualify an applicant from receiving
ordination are of three sorts:

those absolutely disqualifying him for life—even if he receives ordination, he does not
count as properly ordained;

those marking him as an undesirable member of the Community—if he happens to be
ordained, he counts as ordained, but the bhikkhus participating in the ordination incur a
dukkata; and

those indicating that he is formally unprepared for full Acceptance (for instance, he lacks
robes and an alms-bowl or does not have a valid preceptor)...
best wishes, acinteyyo
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gavesako
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Re: Who can't become a monk or nun?

Post by gavesako »

One of the persons disqualified from ordination as a monk is called 'pandaka' which has been variously interpreted. It is quite common to find transgender monks and novices in Thailand, and people complain about their inappropriate behaviour especially when showing it off in public. The stricter interpretation would be that a 'katoey' cannot become a monk, because of the problems it can cause in the Sangha. However, here is an interesting story about a transformation:

Transgender monk: Mimi Tao's face is seen all over Asia these days, but it's been a rocky road to success for the former temple boy from upcountry.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/special ... -the-rules" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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starter
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Re: Who can't become a monk or nun?

Post by starter »

Hello friends,

Happy New Year!

I was away for quite a while. Nice to see that interesting discussions continue in this forum. I wonder if the following procedure is only specific to certain monastery or not. As I remember from the suttas, the Buddha didn't seem to have asked the 15 questions to ordain a man/women. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

"The integration procedure
The procedure of integration in the saṃgha basically consists on a few questions. This requires the presence of at least ten bhikkhus of pure sīla (five are enough if this takes outside the Majjhima region), and with at least ten years of seniority. The bhikkhus and the sāmaṇera (future bhikkhu) take their place in the sīmā, which must be well prepared. The preamble of the procedure and the three sections of the kammavācā must be articulated clearly, respecting the pronunciation scrupulously.
There are bhikkhus who could enter the saṃgha exclusively to benefit from care by doctors who provide free health care to the bhikkhus. Others could enter to elude legal obligations. To avoid problems of this type, in the first part of the procedure the postulant is asked fifteen questions, which he must be able to answer satisfactorily in order to be accepted.
The 15 questions asked to whom wish integrate the saṃgha
Questions: Answers:
Questions: Answers:
Do you have leprosy? No, Venerable
Do you have boils? No, Venerable
Do you have eczema? No, Venerable
Do you have tuberculosis? No, Venerable
Do you have epilepsy? No, Venerable
Are you a human being? Yes, Venerable
Are you a man? Yes, Venerable
Are you a free man? Yes, Venerable
Are you free from debts? Yes, Venerable
Are you free from government service? Yes, Venerable
Do you have your parents' permission? Yes, Venerable
Are you at least 20 years of age? Yes, Venerable
Do you have your bowl and your robes? Yes, Venerable
What is your name? My name is Naga
What is the name of your preceptor? My preceptor is the Venerable Tissa
Note: During the procedure, the postulant and the preceptor provisionally take the names of Naga and Tissa (respectively).
If the postulant is able to answer as indicated above, he can enter the saṃgha. It is as simple as this. After this, the integration procedure can continue, the preceptor gives the new bhikkhu the essential instructions, which are the four offences entailing the loss of the bhikkhu status. See "The 4 pārājika".

-- http://en.dhammadana.org/sangha/monks/become.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

Wish all friends a very fruitful new year in the Dhamma practice.

Starter
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Who can't become a monk or nun?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

starter wrote:As I remember from the suttas, the Buddha didn't seem to have asked the 15 questions to ordain a man/women. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
The ordination procedure was laid down for the Sangha.

If the candidate had sufficient perfection he simply ordained him with the formula, "Ehi bhikkhu," (Come, monk).

In the case of Bāhiya Dāruciriya he asked him, "Do you have a set of robes and a bowl?" Since Bāhiya did not have them, he went away in search of them and was gored to death by a demoness in the form of a cow.

In other cases, the Buddha instructed Ānanda to have the Sangha ordain the candidate, e.g. in the case of Subhadda.
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Maitri
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Re: Who can't become a monk or nun?

Post by Maitri »

I have a question regarding this inquiry:
Are you free from government service? Yes, Venerable
How would this apply to men who are eligible for the military draft or reserve status in the U.S.A or other countries? Although they are unlikely to be called up, young men 18 and over must register for the draft in the U.S.A. and are obligated to remain in the rolls for a number of years. Would this fit as a government service? Or is it speaking about something else?

Although this question is specifically aimed at men in the U.S.A. it is probable that women will sign up for selective service in the near future.
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Re: Who can't become a monk or nun?

Post by Dhammanando »

Maitri wrote:How would this apply to men who are eligible for the military draft or reserve status in the U.S.A or other countries?
Mere eligibility for the draft doesn’t count as an obstacle in the Vinaya, though if some country decided that it did count and that those eligible could not ordain, then the Sangha would have no choice but to conform.

Thailand has a selective conscription system, in which all the young men who are eligible for the draft have to pick a rubber ball out of a box and are conscripted if they pick the wrong colour (though in the case of rich kids it’s usual for their parents to pay a bribe to the conscripting officer to enable their son to evade it. Hence the cannon fodder in the Thai military consists overwhelmingly of peasant lads). The national policy regarding ordination is that mere eligibility for the draft doesn’t debar a man from ordaining, but if he’s already gone along to the conscription office and picked the wrong ball (and his parents haven’t paid the requisite bribe) then he can’t ordain until he’s done his two years in the military.
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Re: Who can't become a monk or nun?

Post by Maitri »

Dhammanando wrote:
Maitri wrote:How would this apply to men who are eligible for the military draft or reserve status in the U.S.A or other countries?
Mere eligibility for the draft doesn’t count as an obstacle in the Vinaya, though if some country decided that it did count and that those eligible could not ordain, then the Sangha would have no choice but to conform.
Thank you for the explanation, Bhante. Concerning confirming, what would be done in a case where a young man (or woman) is actually called up for military service after ordination? Would he or she leave the order to serve or would they pursue a CO status and remain a monastic?
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Even so, on the rubbish heap of blinded mortals the disciple of the Supremely Enlightened One shines resplendent in wisdom." Dhammapada: Pupphavagga

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Re: Who can't become a monk or nun?

Post by Dhammanando »

Maitri wrote:Thank you for the explanation, Bhante. Concerning confirming, what would be done in a case where a young man (or woman) is actually called up for military service after ordination? Would he or she leave the order to serve or would they pursue a CO status and remain a monastic?
I don't know if things are still the same today, but it used to be the case that the ordained were not obliged to submit to the ball-selecting ceremony and so only got conscripted if they disrobed while still young enough for the draft.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Re: Who can't become a monk or nun?

Post by Pasada »

starter wrote:Do you have boils? No, Venerable
Do you have eczema? No, Venerable
Do you have epilepsy? No, Venerable
Are people who have these conditions disqualified from ordained today? What about people who develop these or other medical conditions after ordaining; do they have to disrobe?

I can understand leprosy and TB, since those are contagious and potentially fatal illnesses, but the above diseases are not fatal or contagious.
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Re: Who can't become a monk or nun?

Post by Dhammanando »

Pasada wrote:
starter wrote:Do you have boils? No, Venerable
Do you have eczema? No, Venerable
Do you have epilepsy? No, Venerable
Are people who have these conditions disqualified from ordained today?
In monasteries where the Vinaya is observed strictly they would be treated as disqualified, while in lax monasteries the rule tends to be disregarded. However, since this is not among those prohibitive conditions that would render one's ordination invalid (e.g. it's not like being someone who formerly committed a pārājika offence and who can never validly ordain), a man with boils or whatever who manages to get himself ordained somewhere would have to be accepted as a bhikkhu even in those strict monasteries that would not themselves have accepted him for ordination.
Pasada wrote:What about people who develop these or other medical conditions after ordaining; do they have to disrobe?
No.
Pasada wrote:I can understand leprosy and TB, since those are contagious and potentially fatal illnesses, but the above diseases are not fatal or contagious.
It has nothing to do with their infectiousness (the idea that it does is a modern one with no support in the texts). The rule was laid down because the five maladies were rife in Magadha in the Buddha's time and it happened that Jīvaka, the physician to King Bimbisāra and the bhikkhusangha, was the best person to treat them. And so men were getting ordained just so that they could get free treatment from Jīvaka. In the end Jīvaka became overburdened with treating bhikkhus all the time.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Re: Who can't become a monk or nun?

Post by SarathW »

That make sense Bhante.
In Sri Lanka you have to wait in very long queue to get medical treatments.
For monks do not have to and they can go and see the doctor straight away.
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