Ajahn Brahm on why he was excommunicated

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Ajahn Brahm on why he was excommunicated

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote:It is such a beautiful tradition.
I hope we keep it as it is without divisions.
By the way what about nuns.
Can they stay with monks?
Can they sleep with the same residence?
In those monasteries that make provision for nuns, they will normally have either their own building or their own section of the monastery with individual chalets. It's quite rare to find monks and nuns sleeping in the same building, though it happens in some places.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
SarathW
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Re: Ajahn Brahm on why he was excommunicated

Post by SarathW »

I still do not understand what is the wrong done by AB.
Bikkhuni ordination already there so why AB was at fault?

==========
Because of current demographics, the Bhavana Society is only able to give full ordination to men. The continuity of the nuns' ordination in southeast Asia was lost centuries ago and was only reinstated in 1996 at Sarnath, India. At this ceremony eleven selected Sinhalese Dasa Sil Mata nuns were ordained fully as bhikkhunis by a group of Theravada monks together with a quorum of Korean nuns. Thus for the first time after about 980 years the Theravada Bhikkhuni Order was revived in India.

https://bhavanasociety.org/ord

Moderator note: broken link repaired at suggestion of another member.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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pilgrim
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Re: Ajahn Brahm on why he was excommunicated

Post by pilgrim »

In a message posted on a Singapore Facebook page, it was mentioned that Aj Brahm traveled to Thailand last year and stayed at Ajahn Ganha's monastery and attempted to meet Ajahn Sumedho at his monastery, a stone's throw from where he was staying. While in Canada, Ajahn Brahm also attempted to meet Ajahn Viradhammo. On both occasions he was rebuffed.

How does one reconcile the acts of those who teach compassion, reconciliation and loving kindness yet apparently do not appear to practise these same teachings? i respect all these bhikkhus but frankly find their behavior to be perplexing and discomforting.
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robertk
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Re: Ajahn Brahm on why he was excommunicated

Post by robertk »

pilgrim wrote:In a message posted on a Singapore Facebook page, it was mentioned that Aj Brahm traveled to Thailand last year and stayed at Ajahn Ganha's monastery and attempted to meet Ajahn Sumedho at his monastery, a stone's throw from where he was staying. While in Canada, Ajahn Brahm also attempted to meet Ajahn Viradhammo. On both occasions he was rebuffed.

How does one reconcile the acts of those who teach compassion, reconciliation and loving kindness yet apparently do not appear to practise these same teachings? i respect all these bhikkhus but frankly find their behavior to be perplexing and discomforting.
Obviously we dont know how reliable this message is, however I will hazard an opinion. IMHO I greatly respect Sumedho and Viradhammo for taking pains to not be influenced by Brahavamso.

I think if he indicated he wishes to rescind his unfortunate actions and stop his support for improper ordinations, and make a sincere apology to the sangha etc. Then the two venerables would meet him and welcome him with every bit of metta of their magnanimous hearts.

I am guessing that his wish to meet does not have that aim?
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Aloka
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Re: Ajahn Brahm on why he was excommunicated

Post by Aloka »

Mr Man wrote:Almost six year on now.
Yes, the blog article in the OP #1 is from 2009.


:anjali:
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Aloka
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Re: Ajahn Brahm on why he was excommunicated

Post by Aloka »

pilgrim wrote:In a message posted on a Singapore Facebook page, it was mentioned that Aj Brahm traveled to Thailand last year and stayed at Ajahn Ganha's monastery and attempted to meet Ajahn Sumedho at his monastery, a stone's throw from where he was staying. While in Canada, Ajahn Brahm also attempted to meet Ajahn Viradhammo. On both occasions he was rebuffed.

How does one reconcile the acts of those who teach compassion, reconciliation and loving kindness yet apparently do not appear to practise these same teachings? i respect all these bhikkhus but frankly find their behavior to be perplexing and discomforting.

I don't think its a good idea to form opinions about people from the messages on social media sites, they can be rife with gossip and misinformation.

.
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pilgrim
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Re: Ajahn Brahm on why he was excommunicated

Post by pilgrim »

Just to address any concerns of heresay or rumours below is the link. I hesitated to post the link earlier but as it was set to 'public' and has been there for 6 months, I guess my concerns was unnecessary. I don't wish for this issue to be blown up again but it has been 6 years already. C'mon. Even lay people do not hold grudges for so long. As lay people who support the sangha, we wish to see harmony and good will. What has anyone to lose by getting past this episode.
Robert,I 'm sure you'll agree that the teachings on metta, reconciliation, and compassion are to be practised unconditionally and not to manipulate the actions of another.

https://www.facebook.com/BodhinyanaSing ... 6158121836" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Anagarika
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Re: Ajahn Brahm on why he was excommunicated

Post by Anagarika »

robertk wrote:
pilgrim wrote:
Obviously we dont know how reliable this message is, however I will hazard an opinion. IMHO I greatly respect Sumedho and Viradhammo for taking pains to not be influenced by Brahavamso.

I think if he indicated he wishes to rescind his unfortunate actions and stop his support for improper ordinations, and make a sincere apology to the sangha etc. Then the two venerables would meet him and welcome him with every bit of metta of their magnanimous hearts.

I am guessing that his wish to meet does not have that aim?
I wonder how this position reconciles with the Ajahn Sumedho invention of the siladhara ordinations? I've not found any source that suggests these contrived, subordinated ordinations were Vinaya derived. These ordinations, and the invented "Five Points" seemed just a convenient way to ordain women with "half a loaf," and yet keep them subordinate to the Amaravati monks. Magnanimous hearts, indeed.

Better that Ajahn Sumedho apologize to Ajahn Brahm, for at least Ven. Brahm made some effort to conduct a proper Vinaya ordination of the Bhikkhunis. And, as Bhikkhu Bodhi suggested, whether these ordinations were hyper technically and legally correct ( and the scholarship states that they were), he advocates that these Bhikkhuni ordinations were consistent with the idea that in matters like these, the most compassionate and positive view be taken by the Sangha in splits of legal opinion. The Buddha saw fit to ordain women, and establish a robust Sangha and Vinaya of/for Bhikkhunis. What Ajahn Sumedho invented with the contrived siladhara ordinations strikes me as antithetical to the spirit and the law of the Dhamma and Vinaya.

And, I'd bet that if Ajahn Sumedho came to Perth, Ajahn Brahm would be the first person at the airport to greet him.

( Edit: Robert, rereading my comment, it sounds a bit snarky...it's not personal to you. The whole siladhara bit deserves some snark, IMO, but I didn't mean this to sound directed at your personal comments or you. )
Last edited by Anagarika on Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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pilgrim
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Re: Ajahn Brahm on why he was excommunicated

Post by pilgrim »

It's well past the time for fault finding and finger pointing. Let's accept the fact that no one is going to admit fault or to apologise. Whether one recognises them or not, the bhikkhuni sangha exists. And whether they flourish or falter is beyond the control of any monk. What I'd like to see and I think many share my sentiment is for these Ajahns to grow up, get past this, start practising what they preach and move forward for the betterment of the entire Theravada community. What is there to gain with the continued icy relationship?
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robertk
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Re: Ajahn Brahm on why he was excommunicated

Post by robertk »

Anagarika wrote:
I wonder how this position reconciles with the Ajahn Sumedho invention of the siladhara ordinations? I've not found any source that suggests these contrived, subordinated ordinations were Vinaya derived. These ordinations, and the invented "Five Points" seemed just a convenient way to ordain women with "half a loaf," and yet keep them subordinate to the Amaravati monks. Magnanimous hearts, indeed.

Better that Ajahn Sumedho apologize to Ajahn Brahm, for at least Ven. Brahm made some effort to conduct a proper Vinaya ordination of the Bhikkhunis. And, as Bhikkhu Bodhi suggested, whether these ordinations were hyper technically and legally correct ( and the scholarship states that they were), he advocates that these Bhikkhuni ordinations were consistent with the idea that in matters like these, the most compassionate and positive view be taken by the Sangha in splits of legal opinion. The Buddha saw fit to ordain women, and establish a robust Sangha and Vinaya of/for Bhikkhunis. What Ajahn Sumedho invented with the contrived siladhara ordinations strikes me as antithetical to the spirit and the law of the Dhamma and Vinaya.

And, I'd bet that if Ajahn Sumedho came to Perth, Ajahn Brahm would be the first person at the airport to greet him.

( Edit: Robert, rereading my comment, it sounds a bit snarky...it's not personal to you. The whole siladhara bit deserves some snark, IMO, but I didn't mean this to sound directed at your personal comments or you. )
No problem at all with your comments, but thanks for explaining anyway. :anjali:
Now onto your points about the innovative siladhara ordination:
Sumedho took a heat from conservative Theravadans over that actually. Especially from those worried that it might be a wedge for attempts to reinstate the Bhikkhuni order. From my point of view he might have been better to try to raise the staus of meichi, but perhaps the nuns wanted to wear the dyed robes like men.

Anyway without actually breaching the Vinaya ( as far as I know) he did what he could to support women renunciates- despite the opposition from Thailand and so on.

Brahmavamso , by getting involved in Bhikkhuni ordination, something that cannot be carried out now, is going far, far beyond this and , Imho, needs to be seriously rebuked for this. As he has been. Until he rescinds and repents it is appropriate that Sumedho does not meet him.
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nekete
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Re: Ajahn Brahm on why he was excommunicated

Post by nekete »

robertk wrote:
Anagarika wrote:
I wonder how this position reconciles with the Ajahn Sumedho invention of the siladhara ordinations? I've not found any source that suggests these contrived, subordinated ordinations were Vinaya derived. These ordinations, and the invented "Five Points" seemed just a convenient way to ordain women with "half a loaf," and yet keep them subordinate to the Amaravati monks. Magnanimous hearts, indeed.

Better that Ajahn Sumedho apologize to Ajahn Brahm, for at least Ven. Brahm made some effort to conduct a proper Vinaya ordination of the Bhikkhunis. And, as Bhikkhu Bodhi suggested, whether these ordinations were hyper technically and legally correct ( and the scholarship states that they were), he advocates that these Bhikkhuni ordinations were consistent with the idea that in matters like these, the most compassionate and positive view be taken by the Sangha in splits of legal opinion. The Buddha saw fit to ordain women, and establish a robust Sangha and Vinaya of/for Bhikkhunis. What Ajahn Sumedho invented with the contrived siladhara ordinations strikes me as antithetical to the spirit and the law of the Dhamma and Vinaya.

And, I'd bet that if Ajahn Sumedho came to Perth, Ajahn Brahm would be the first person at the airport to greet him.

( Edit: Robert, rereading my comment, it sounds a bit snarky...it's not personal to you. The whole siladhara bit deserves some snark, IMO, but I didn't mean this to sound directed at your personal comments or you. )
No problem at all with your comments, but thanks for explaining anyway. :anjali:
Now onto your points about the innovative siladhara ordination:
Sumedho took a heat from conservative Theravadans over that actually. Especially from those worried that it might be a wedge for attempts to reinstate the Bhikkhuni order. From my point of view he might have been better to try to raise the staus of meichi, but perhaps the nuns wanted to wear the dyed robes like men.

Anyway without actually breaching the Vinaya ( as far as I know) he did what he could to support women renunciates- despite the opposition from Thailand and so on.

Brahmavamso , by getting involved in Bhikkhuni ordination, something that cannot be carried out now, is going far, far beyond this and , Imho, needs to be seriously rebuked for this. As he has been. Until he rescinds and repents it is appropriate that Sumedho does not meet him.
Ajahn Brahm has behaved like a true follower of Buddha's theachings. How can you maintain these days that women in monasteries can't be in the same level as men. It's so ridicoulus.

Good for Ajahn Brahm.
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Re: Ajahn Brahm on why he was excommunicated

Post by tiltbillings »

nekete wrote:
Ajahn Brahm has behaved like a true follower of Buddha's theachings. How can you maintain these days that women in monasteries can't be in the same level as men. It's so ridicoulus.
Ever so much.
Good for Ajahn Brahm.
Agreed.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Ajahn Brahm on why he was excommunicated

Post by pilgrim »

robertk wrote:
Brahmavamso , by getting involved in Bhikkhuni ordination, something that cannot be carried out now, is going far, far beyond this and , Imho, needs to be seriously rebuked for this. As he has been. Until he rescinds and repents it is appropriate that Sumedho does not meet him.
These bhikkhunis have left family and property behind and ordained 6 years ago. They have probably participated in the ordination of other bhikkhunis. It is ridiculous to suggest that Ajahn Brahm rescind the ordination as if their lives can be considered so inconsequential simply to satisfy the wishes of these Ajahns. In any case there is no Vinaya provision for such an act. If this is really a prerequisite for reconciliation set down by the Ajahns, I am even more dissapointed.

But I am certain Ajahn Brahm would not do this. So do we wish to see these elderly Ajahns take this animosity to their graves?

As a layman I have had my share of quarrels and conflicts with colleagues and relatives, yet today I have no enemies. It is really not so difficult.
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cooran
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Re: Ajahn Brahm on why he was excommunicated

Post by cooran »

I found Bhikkhu Bodhi's response to Ajahn Brahmavamso's actions at that time, interesting:
https://sujato.wordpress.com/2009/11/08 ... -response/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Ajahn Brahm on why he was excommunicated

Post by Mkoll »

cooran wrote:I found Bhikkhu Bodhi's response to Ajahn Brahmavamso's actions at that time, interesting:
https://sujato.wordpress.com/2009/11/08 ... -response/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta,
Chris
After having read that, I feel the same way. It is good to hear the opinion of a fairly neutral third party. I've never seen anything but integrity come from Ven. Bodhi and I see no reason to question his analysis, which seems sound.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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