Yes, it could be argued that he did self-inflicted euthanasia. However, the reports in the suttas of those who "took the knife" were arahants, nothing left to be done. If he was still a sotapanna, then he still had further to go. And then there are Commentary reports that those who took the knife gained arahantship after they used the knife (as they were dying).EmptyShadow wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:42 pmTaking someone else's life is not the same as taking your own life. There are examples in the suttas about enlightened ones, including arahants, who ended their own lives. For example: Channa, Vakkali, Santati the King's Minister
Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?
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Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?
Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?
It is the same. And I don't think Buddha endorse suicide either.EmptyShadow wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:42 pmTaking someone else's life is not the same as taking your own life. There are examples in the suttas about enlightened ones, including arahants, who ended their own lives. For example: Channa, Vakkali, Santati the King's Minister
And should not compare Nanavira with Arahants. After all, they are Arahants without defilements and blameless. But Nanavira is not. Far from it.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?
Seems to me that a diagnosis at the time was rare. Perhaps that was what was meant. Nevertheless I just used your comment to fill in the blanks before something less reliable was said (not that yours was ).
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?
Perhaps such problems were not discussed much outside of the monastic sangha at the time...
Mike
Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?
As DNS noted according to the Commentary the bhikkhus attained after using the knife.EmptyShadow wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:42 pmTaking someone else's life is not the same as taking your own life. There are examples in the suttas about enlightened ones, including arahants, who ended their own lives. For example: Channa, Vakkali, Santati the King's Minister
Santati never committed suicide; his life span was up and he was able to know this and had the ability to die in such a way.
Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?
I’m not here to again suggest you present some evidence for your claim. I’m here to tell people that if they want to know the story to read his biography or watch the documentary on YouTube - all accounts of those who were there.
Edit: S, I didn’t remember your name change until now. Nevertheless, it would be helpful if you didn’t just post your opinion on the matter. There are firsthand accounts of how he was discovered in his kuti.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?
This the first time I heard of this!Ontheway wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:32 pm https://www.pressreader.com/sri-lanka/d ... 1207250413
Apparently he took his life not because of the illness of amoebiasis, but rather unable to calm down his craving for sex. A tragedy indeed.
However Ven Nanavira Thera wrote lengthily and cautiously on Dhamma, his health issues, and suicide, especially in his regular correspondence with friends, which divulged the truth, the real reason for his decision. It was not the severity of the amoebiasis; but a very unusual and extremely rare physical discomfort called satyriasis.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?
Be it illness or satyriasis, it was a tragedy indeed. I wonder which plane of existence he will be going to.SarathW wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:55 amThis the first time I heard of this!Ontheway wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:32 pm https://www.pressreader.com/sri-lanka/d ... 1207250413
Apparently he took his life not because of the illness of amoebiasis, but rather unable to calm down his craving for sex. A tragedy indeed.
However Ven Nanavira Thera wrote lengthily and cautiously on Dhamma, his health issues, and suicide, especially in his regular correspondence with friends, which divulged the truth, the real reason for his decision. It was not the severity of the amoebiasis; but a very unusual and extremely rare physical discomfort called satyriasis.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?
This is a weird story. How come such a ill person had satyriasis.Ontheway wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:04 amBe it illness or satyriasis, it was a tragedy indeed. I wonder which plane of existence he will be going to.SarathW wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:55 amThis the first time I heard of this!Ontheway wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:32 pm https://www.pressreader.com/sri-lanka/d ... 1207250413
Apparently he took his life not because of the illness of amoebiasis, but rather unable to calm down his craving for sex. A tragedy indeed.
Do you think they found another Viagra?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?
He didnt break precept and lived as monk ... even unenlightened people who live with vinaya rules intact can go to brahma world... but he is sotapanna and he is head to heavenOntheway wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:04 amBe it illness or satyriasis, it was a tragedy indeed. I wonder which plane of existence he will be going to.SarathW wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:55 amThis the first time I heard of this!Ontheway wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:32 pm https://www.pressreader.com/sri-lanka/d ... 1207250413
Apparently he took his life not because of the illness of amoebiasis, but rather unable to calm down his craving for sex. A tragedy indeed.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?
Alright. If that is what you believe, so be it.confusedlayman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:29 amHe didnt break precept and lived as monk ... even unenlightened people who live with vinaya rules intact can go to brahma world... but he is sotapanna and he is head to heaven
I don't think just by keeping Vinaya rules can get to Brahma world. Only meditation such as Brahmavihara can get to reborn there.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?
I think it was his body or psychological condition. It seems another nun also claimed to be a Sotapanna by him, who later had a mental breakdown and disrobed.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister_Vajir%C4%81
I respect them as a fellow human, but I wouldn't put my bet on these two persons to learn Dhamma. Too risky.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?
Did Ven, Nanavira teach anything contray to Tipitaka?I wouldn't put my bet on these two persons to learn Dhamma. Too risky.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?
Yes.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”