Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

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SarathW
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Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by SarathW »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:33 pm
SarathW wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:23 pm
I wouldn't put my bet on these two persons to learn Dhamma. Too risky.
Did Ven, Nanavira teach anything contray to Tipitaka?
Yes.
Thanks. Could you give me some of his teaching not aline with Sutta, please?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by Ceisiwr »

SarathW wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:56 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:33 pm
SarathW wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:23 pm
Did Ven, Nanavira teach anything contray to Tipitaka?
Yes.
Thanks. Could you give me some of his teaching not aline with Sutta, please?
Everything on dependent origination.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ontheway
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Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by Ontheway »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:30 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:56 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:33 pm

Yes.
Thanks. Could you give me some of his teaching not aline with Sutta, please?
Everything on dependent origination.
I think Nanavira's explanation on Paticca-samuppada is a single life model, similar to Buddhadasa's explanation too. Meanwhile, classical Theravada explained it in three times (past, present, and future) model.

It seems you taken up Sarvastivada(or Mahayana sometimes) and quote from those scriptures quite frequently, may I know what is your understanding on Paticca Samuppada based on their scriptures? Is it different from classical Theravada's explanation?
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:48 am
It seems you taken up Sarvastivada(or Mahayana sometimes) and quote from those scriptures quite frequently, may I know what is your understanding on Paticca Samuppada based on their scriptures? Is it different from classical Theravada's explanation?
I’m neither of those. Both have a model similar to Theravada. Some differences, but still spread over lives. By Mahayana I mean Madhyamaka here. I think Yogacara is the same.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ontheway
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Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by Ontheway »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:14 am
Ontheway wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:48 am
It seems you taken up Sarvastivada(or Mahayana sometimes) and quote from those scriptures quite frequently, may I know what is your understanding on Paticca Samuppada based on their scriptures? Is it different from classical Theravada's explanation?
I’m neither of those. Both have a model similar to Theravada. Some differences, but still spread over lives. By Mahayana I mean Madhyamaka here. I think Yogacara is the same.
I see. So Nanavira's explanation is unique among all. No wonder people like it so much. Even NonBuddhist also talk about it.

Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:35 am
I see. So Nanavira's explanation is unique among all. No wonder people like it so much. Even NonBuddhist also talk about it.
There is a version of dependent origination which occurs in one mind moment in the Abhidhamma, but it’s still different to what the Venerable taught. For example his argument is that Akaliko is quite literal. Dependent origination is quite literally timeless, a timeless “structure”. I’ve never thought about it before but perhaps his ideas are quite close to certain trends of thought in Mahāsāṃghika. Regardless, it looks to me like a new Abhidhamma for westerners. It’s heavily influenced by western phenomenology particularly Husserl, Heidegger and Merleau-Ponty.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenome ... hilosophy)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
SarathW
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Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by SarathW »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:30 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:56 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:33 pm

Yes.
Thanks. Could you give me some of his teaching not aline with Sutta, please?
Everything on dependent origination.
Could you give me a brief summary of that, please?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Ontheway
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Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by Ontheway »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:23 am
Ontheway wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:35 am
I see. So Nanavira's explanation is unique among all. No wonder people like it so much. Even NonBuddhist also talk about it.
There is a version of dependent origination which occurs in one mind moment in the Abhidhamma, but it’s still different to what the Venerable taught. For example his argument is that Akaliko is quite literal. Dependent origination is quite literally timeless, a timeless “structure”. I’ve never thought about it before but perhaps his ideas are quite close to certain trends of thought in Mahāsāṃghika. Regardless, it looks to me like a new Abhidhamma for westerners. It’s heavily influenced by western phenomenology particularly Husserl, Heidegger and Merleau-Ponty.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenome ... hilosophy)
“There is a version of dependent origination which occurs in one mind moment in the Abhidhamma”

Is that what we called 'Cittavithi' ? It is in Visuddhimagga and was found in Dhammasangani too.

I haven't finish reading Dhammasangani yet. Half way through.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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SDC
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Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:33 pm
SarathW wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:23 pm
I wouldn't put my bet on these two persons to learn Dhamma. Too risky.
Did Ven, Nanavira teach anything contray to Tipitaka?
Yes.
Abhidhamma, most definitely. The Theravadin orthodox interpretation, absolutely. But not even Bhikkhu Bodhi was able to show that his interpretation was contrary to the suttas.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I read the Ven Bodhi response to "Notes on the Dhamma" not too long ago. He runs into the problem of negative evidence. He cannot direct positive evidence against Ven Nanavira (i.e. something like "In this passage, it actively states the opposite"), but instead has to point out that certain of the Venerable's intuited connections cannot be directly substantiated from the suttas. It's not the hardest evidence to the contrary. The best part of his response to "Notes on the Dhamma" is his deconstruction of Ven Nanavira's usage of "birth," but he has a harder time with other interpretations put forward IMO.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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SDC
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Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by SDC »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:13 pm I read the Ven Bodhi response to "Notes on the Dhamma" not too long ago. He runs into the problem of negative evidence. He cannot direct positive evidence against Ven Nanavira (i.e. something like "In this passage, it actively states the opposite"), but instead has to point out that certain of the Venerable's intuited connections cannot be directly substantiated from the suttas. It's not the hardest evidence to the contrary. The best part of his response to "Notes on the Dhamma" is his deconstruction of Ven Nanavira's usage of "birth," but he has a harder time with other interpretations put forward IMO.
That about sums it up.

Ven. Nanavira’s interpretation of birth and death are the most challenging to work out, and most susceptible to criticism - especially from the angle Ven. Bodhi approaches it.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Ontheway
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Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by Ontheway »

SDC wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:38 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:33 pm
SarathW wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:23 pm
Did Ven, Nanavira teach anything contray to Tipitaka?
Yes.
Abhidhamma, most definitely. The Theravadin orthodox interpretation, absolutely. But not even Bhikkhu Bodhi was able to show that his interpretation was contrary to the suttas.
Really? Have you read "Investigating the Dhamma" by Bhikkhu Bodhi? It seems Nanavira's explanation on Paticca Samuppada was debunked.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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SDC
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Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by SDC »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:42 pm
SDC wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:38 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:33 pm

Yes.
Abhidhamma, most definitely. The Theravadin orthodox interpretation, absolutely. But not even Bhikkhu Bodhi was able to show that his interpretation was contrary to the suttas.
Really? Have you read "Investigating the Dhamma" by Bhikkhu Bodhi? It seems Nanavira's explanation on Paticca Samuppada was debunked.
His interpretation was debunked by Ven. Bodhi…on the grounds of the orthodox interpretation of the suttas, not by the suttas themselves. The Pali - even in a translated form - can hold a myriad of interpretations. Ven. Nanavira isn’t the only one who’s taken liberties, but he’s very clear in presenting it as something that you have to verify on account of your own work and the gain of the right view to know for it for oneself. He never asked anyone to simply take his word for it.

That is why these threads are always such a disaster - so many stakes to claim, and very little acknowledgment of the fact that until we are sotapanna we won’t know for sure. That is why I am always so adamant about encouraging people to give Ven. Nanavira a very thorough read if they are interested in knowing whether or not he was on to something. So many people respond with hesitation and with not having an interest in taking the time. Like I said, I get that, but you also shouldn’t expect to be taken seriously when standing on Ven. Bodhi’s or anyone else’s shoulders to discredit his work. Clearly you have given some of it a read. I can’t tell how much, but you’re far less uninformed than many who just blindly worship any opposition to his work. But unless you are a sotapanna all you are doing is agreeing that Ven. Bodhi found multiple discrepancies when compared with the traditional interpretation of the Dhamma.

If you disagree with me on this point I would like to better understand what the intent is when opposing something you haven’t confirmed is wrong. Is it that you want to protect people from wasting their time or feeding into the wrong view? Here we are 61 years after his Notes were first published, still laboring on whether or not he worth people’s time, so I think I would productive to get these things out into the open.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Jack19990101 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:55 pm
Here is the full Vibhaṅga passage, in relation to the casual section
2. Analysis According to Abhidhamma
1. Causal Tetrad
Because of ignorance there is activity; because of activity there is consciousness; because of consciousness there is mind; because of mind there is the sixth base; because of the sixth base there is contact; because of contact there is feeling; because of feeling there is craving; because of craving there is attachment; because of attachment there is becoming; because of becoming there is birth; because of birth there is ageing and death. Thus is the arising of this whole mass of suffering. (1)

Because of ignorance there is activity; because of activity there is consciousness; because of consciousness there is mind; because of mind there is contact; because of contact there is feeling; because of feeling there is craving; because of craving there is attachment; because of attachment there is becoming; because of becoming there is birth; because of birth there is ageing and death. Thus is the arising of this whole mass of suffering. (2)

Because of ignorance there is activity; because of activity there is consciousness; because of consciousness there is mind and matter; because of mind and matter there is the sixth base; because of the sixth base there is contact; because of contact there is feeling; because of feeling there is craving; because of craving there is attachment; because of attachment there is becoming; because of becoming there is birth; because of birth there is ageing and death. Thus is the arising of this whole mass of suffering. (3)

Because of ignorance there is activity; because of activity there is consciousness; because of consciousness there is mind and matter; because of mind and matter there are six bases; because of the sixth base there is contact; because of contact there is feeling; because of feeling there is craving; because of craving there is attachment; because of attachment there is becoming; because of | becoming there is birth; because of birth there is ageing and death. Thus is the arising of this whole mass of suffering. (4)
https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/thittila
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Venerable Nanavira - Sotapanna or Arahant?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Quick glance of your post, it seems -

Seemly the traditional is starting from the definition of avijja as -
Not knowing the noble truth - which is the avijja in completion, it is generic term for avijja
Nanavira, altho i did not read in too much details neither, start avjiia as -
I am the body - which is a sub set of generic avijja.

'I am the body' is a specific avijja giving arise to lower 5 fetters.
'not knowing noble truth' gives rise to all 10 fetters.

I would vote for Nanavira's version.
The higher fetters won't endorse form which is a key element of dependent origination.

Hence the avijja in dependent origination is better treat as 'i am the body' - it will be more valuable in practice.
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