Can one go for full Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage after committing a Parajika in another?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Dharmasherab
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Can one go for full Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage after committing a Parajika in another?

Post by Dharmasherab »

Unfortunately a good friend of mine committed a Parajika offence and is being relegated back to being a Novice (Samanera).

My question is whether a Parajika offence committed under a particular monastic lineage where the offender is no longer allowed to become a Bhikkhu, whether that only applies within that monastic lineage where the offence was committed in or does it applies across the board regardless of the Theravada monastic lineage?

In other words, after committing a Parajika offence in a specific monastic lineage, is it still possible to seek Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage?
“When one does not understand death, life can be very confusing.” - Ajahn Chah
Calmoid
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Re: Can one go for full Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage after committing a Parajika in anot

Post by Calmoid »

Dharmasherab wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:26 am Unfortunately a good friend of mine committed a Parajika offence and is being relegated back to being a Novice (Samanera).

My question is whether a Parajika offence committed under a particular monastic lineage where the offender is no longer allowed to become a Bhikkhu, whether that only applies within that monastic lineage where the offence was committed in or does it applies across the board regardless of the Theravada monastic lineage?

In other words, after committing a Parajika offence in a specific monastic lineage, is it still possible to seek Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage?
He is barred to become a bhikkhu again in this life. Lineages don't matter in this case, they are a later development. So Yes it applies to 'across the board' so to say, it applies to being a bhikkhu again.
The Buddha said one is barred to become a bhikkhu again. So you can't ordain as a bhikkhu again. Whatever lineage, no bhikkhu ordination. He should take responsibility and respect that if he has any respect for the dhamma vinaya left.
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Dharmasherab
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Re: Can one go for full Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage after committing a Parajika in anot

Post by Dharmasherab »

Thanks Calmoid for this clear and concise explanation. :anjali:
“When one does not understand death, life can be very confusing.” - Ajahn Chah
Chanh Dao
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Re: Can one go for full Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage after committing a Parajika in anot

Post by Chanh Dao »

What is the efficacy of a Bhikkhu committing a parijika offense and than going into the position of a samanera?

Most samaneras look identical to bhikkhus in terms of the robes they wear. Is this appropriate?

I'm interested to hear more about this case of how a Bhikkhu should interact with the lay Sangha after committing a parijika offence.

Specifically in terms of being a novice again and still wearing the monks robes.
polaris
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Re: Can one go for full Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage after committing a Parajika in anot

Post by polaris »

Dharmasherab wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:26 am Unfortunately a good friend of mine committed a Parajika offence and is being relegated back to being a Novice (Samanera).

My question is whether a Parajika offence committed under a particular monastic lineage where the offender is no longer allowed to become a Bhikkhu, whether that only applies within that monastic lineage where the offence was committed in or does it applies across the board regardless of the Theravada monastic lineage?

In other words, after committing a Parajika offence in a specific monastic lineage, is it still possible to seek Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage?
I can't remember what is Parajika. I read it somewhere. I looked up buddhist dictionary online couldn't find it, may be I missed it. Kind enough to say a few words on Parajika?
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Can one go for full Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage after committing a Parajika in anot

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

polaris wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:15 am
Dharmasherab wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:26 am Unfortunately a good friend of mine committed a Parajika offence and is being relegated back to being a Novice (Samanera).

My question is whether a Parajika offence committed under a particular monastic lineage where the offender is no longer allowed to become a Bhikkhu, whether that only applies within that monastic lineage where the offence was committed in or does it applies across the board regardless of the Theravada monastic lineage?

In other words, after committing a Parajika offence in a specific monastic lineage, is it still possible to seek Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage?
I can't remember what is Parajika. I read it somewhere. I looked up buddhist dictionary online couldn't find it, may be I missed it. Kind enough to say a few words on Parajika?
Parajika
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81%E ... a#Parajika

The important thing is also that this person will be able to continue practicing Dharma as a Layperson and can achieve Enlightenment!

:anjali:
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Re: Can one go for full Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage after committing a Parajika in anot

Post by confusedlayman »

Dharmasherab wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:26 am Unfortunately a good friend of mine committed a Parajika offence and is being relegated back to being a Novice (Samanera).

My question is whether a Parajika offence committed under a particular monastic lineage where the offender is no longer allowed to become a Bhikkhu, whether that only applies within that monastic lineage where the offence was committed in or does it applies across the board regardless of the Theravada monastic lineage?

In other words, after committing a Parajika offence in a specific monastic lineage, is it still possible to seek Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage?
Being a novice or Bhikku no different in the practise support he receive. for example monestry work or adminsitration work might differ but for practising 8 fold path no diffference. i think he should focus on practise without worry about status of external. as long as he is in monestry situation with robes and following vinaya he should be happy with it. In fact i have no idea whats difference bwtween novice and bhikku except worldly duties i think bhikku has more power in monestry whereas novice has less command or i may be wrong. In case if i enter monestry i ask robes and vinaya rules and focus full on practise and dont care if they call me bhikku or novice or abbot or buddha itself it doesnt make any difference. i encourage ur freind to keep practising and make sure mindful so no offence in future commited.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
polaris
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Re: Can one go for full Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage after committing a Parajika in anot

Post by polaris »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:40 am
polaris wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:15 am
Dharmasherab wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:26 am Unfortunately a good friend of mine committed a Parajika offence and is being relegated back to being a Novice (Samanera).

My question is whether a Parajika offence committed under a particular monastic lineage where the offender is no longer allowed to become a Bhikkhu, whether that only applies within that monastic lineage where the offence was committed in or does it applies across the board regardless of the Theravada monastic lineage?

In other words, after committing a Parajika offence in a specific monastic lineage, is it still possible to seek Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage?
I can't remember what is Parajika. I read it somewhere. I looked up buddhist dictionary online couldn't find it, may be I missed it. Kind enough to say a few words on Parajika?
Parajika
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81%E ... a#Parajika

The important thing is also that this person will be able to continue practicing Dharma as a Layperson and can achieve Enlightenment!



:anjali:
Thank you Lucas for your information on Parajika. Very kind of you.
MettaDevPrac
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Re: Can one go for full Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage after committing a Parajika in anot

Post by MettaDevPrac »

Dharmasherab wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:26 am ... committed a Parajika offence and is being relegated back to being a Novice (Samanera).
It makes me wonder what expulsion means, really, if still using khutis, robes, food, other materials donated to a sangha.

There may be issues of compassion in this, but also in representations to Buddhist laity and non Buddhists. Seems there might be a lot of potential for further mistakes and generating bad kamma in living in same community or same robes or among other novices especially.
- MettaDevPrac
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Dharmasherab
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Re: Can one go for full Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage after committing a Parajika in anot

Post by Dharmasherab »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:40 am

Parajika
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81%E ... a#Parajika

The important thing is also that this person will be able to continue practicing Dharma as a Layperson and can achieve Enlightenment!

:anjali:
An Ajahn in the monastery that I am living in told me that Magga Pala in this life cant be reached if one has done a Parajika offense.
“When one does not understand death, life can be very confusing.” - Ajahn Chah
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Dharmasherab
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Re: Can one go for full Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage after committing a Parajika in anot

Post by Dharmasherab »

MettaDevPrac wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:37 am
It makes me wonder what expulsion means, really, if still using khutis, robes, food, other materials donated to a sangha.

There may be issues of compassion in this, but also in representations to Buddhist laity and non Buddhists. Seems there might be a lot of potential for further mistakes and generating bad kamma in living in same community or same robes or among other novices especially.
Its debatable. I was told that different ordination lineages have their own standards.
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Re: Can one go for full Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage after committing a Parajika in anot

Post by confusedlayman »

Sorry for my above post.. i thought prajaka is lower offence but just now check its highest offence


I think one should not become bhikku in buddhist order ... he cant ordain in sangha that accepts buddha as founder

. I maybe wrong but need monastics to intepret the meaning in terms of lineage..

Also can you confirm if he can attain magha pala as layman? If not that would be scary
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Can one go for full Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage after committing a Parajika in anot

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara »

Dharmasherab wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:26 am Unfortunately a good friend of mine committed a Parajika offence and is being relegated back to being a Novice (Samanera).

My question is whether a Parajika offence committed under a particular monastic lineage where the offender is no longer allowed to become a Bhikkhu, whether that only applies within that monastic lineage where the offence was committed in or does it applies across the board regardless of the Theravada monastic lineage?

In other words, after committing a Parajika offence in a specific monastic lineage, is it still possible to seek Bhikkhu ordination in a different Theravada monastic lineage?
are there no senior monastics at the monastery in which to discuss this with? this situation and topic is a bit heavy and serious for random people to discuss on an internet forum.

Samaneraship is possible for a parajika, some traditions have a special samanera position for parijika monks, which is less status, others just regular samanera, it depends on where the person is or where they may go.

it would be a very bad thing to lie about parijika to try and be a bhikkhu again somewhere else.
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