Moderation in food, 6th precept and weight loss

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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rhinoceroshorn
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Moderation in food, 6th precept and weight loss

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Hello my friends,

I have been uninterruptedly keeping the sixth precept and following Buddha's advice on moderation in food for a while. I have gained many insights through those two practices, I felt my health even improved, my expenditure on food decreased in 150% and so on.

But... I'm having a problem. Since I started this quest of keeping the 8 precepts I have been losing a great deal of weight. I weighed 83 kg and now my weight is 78 kg. I'm afraid it'll keep getting lower and lower. Just for your reference, my height is 1,88 m.

What do monks do to counter weight loss? Do they eat until their stomach is 100% full? Do they eat more carbs? What? I already eat the amount that I am able to eat. I really don't know what to do. And I want to ordain, so it's nice to know such things in advance.

Thanks, with metta.
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
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confusedlayman
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Re: Moderation in food, 6th precept and weight loss

Post by confusedlayman »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:18 pm Hello my friends,

I have been uninterruptedly keeping the sixth precept and following Buddha's advice on moderation in food for a while. I have gained many insights through those two practices, I felt my health even improved, my expenditure on food decreased in 150% and so on.

But... I'm having a problem. Since I started this quest of keeping the 8 precepts I have been losing a great deal of weight. I weighed 83 kg and now my weight is 78 kg. I'm afraid it'll keep getting lower and lower. Just for your reference, my height is 1,88 m.

What do monks do to counter weight loss? Do they eat until their stomach is 100% full? Do they eat more carbs? What? I already eat the amount that I am able to eat. I really don't know what to do. And I want to ordain, so it's nice to know such things in advance.

Thanks, with metta.
Hi I am about to follow this for weight loss and avoid drowsyness due to over eating ... can u tell all about this that u practice... one meal for how many days u did? physical exersice? walking meditaiton? explain my friend...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: Moderation in food, 6th precept and weight loss

Post by DooDoot »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:18 pmWhat do monks do to counter weight loss? Do they eat until their stomach is 100% full?
Its written somewhere the Buddha supposedly taught to not eat until one is full but to eat about X number of mouthfuls less and fill the rest with water. When I was young & lived in the monastery, when eating one meal a day, yes, we generally filled our guts until 100% full. I do not recall any worrisome weight loss nor weigh gain although there was a loss of weight. However, you may notice as monks get older, they get quite fat. It seems signs of obesity is a chronic problem in the famous Western Ajahn Sangha.
395. The person who wears a robe made of rags, who is lean, with veins showing all over the body, and who meditates alone in the forest — him do I call a holy man.

Dhammapada
:alien:
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:13 pm... one meal for how many days u did? physical exersice? walking meditaiton?
If there is samadhi, one meal is no problem. Plus can walk for many hours per day; including sweep the monastery for 2 hours work.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Nicolas
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Re: Moderation in food, 6th precept and weight loss

Post by Nicolas »

:goodpost:

You only lost 5 kg. You still have room to go before you have an unhealthy weight.
Most likely your weight will stabilize at some point, if it hasn't already.
Studies indicate that people of your height with the best health tend to have a weight between 70-90 kg, and weight between 65-90 kg is considered "normal" for your height.
Either way, one shouldn't be intoxicated with health.
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TamHanhHi
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Re: Moderation in food, 6th precept and weight loss

Post by TamHanhHi »

Like Nicolas said, it's normal that you'll lose weight by changing your dietary habits. Just monitor it without worry too much just yet. And are you feeling hunger pangs as well?

The Buddha never said to eat so little that you become skin and bones. He advised to eat so that you will stay healthy. I find that monks tend to eat more if they need to and less if they don't—of course, being human, they can be prone to obesity like everyone else.

As for if you ordain, different monasteries have different rules around food. Generally speaking if you need to eat before noon, you can do so with any amount of food. For some the issue is holding back, but for some the issue is having to encourage oneself to eat more. Moderation doesn't necessarily mean less, it means enough.
"Just as a large banyan tree, on level ground where four roads meet, is a haven for the birds all around, even so a lay person of conviction is a haven for many people: monks, nuns, male lay followers, & female lay followers."AN 5.38
2600htz
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Re: Moderation in food, 6th precept and weight loss

Post by 2600htz »

Hi:

1,88 cm , 78 kg. Those same stats are from Novak Djokovic (rank 1 tennis player). He is a pro athlete, so i don´t see any problem with those numbers.
If you wanna look healthy weight is not very important, its all about muscle and body fat percentage.

Monks typically can do a lot of walking meditation, foot traveling , physical work in order to keep the monastery in shape, stretching after meditation,etc. Also sitting crosslegged with the back straight is more demanding that sitting in front of a computer. So if you eat one meal a day make sure you are doing something similar.

Weight is about calories, so maybe try something like eating at least 80% of the calories you used to eat with several meals.

Regards.
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Moderation in food, 6th precept and weight loss

Post by salayatananirodha »

sāriputta taught to stop a number of mouthfuls from being full to save room for water
anyone know where this is from?
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
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Dhammanando
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Re: Moderation in food, 6th precept and weight loss

Post by Dhammanando »

salayatananirodha wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:06 am sāriputta taught to stop a number of mouthfuls from being full to save room for water
anyone know where this is from?
cattāro pañca ālope, abhutvā udakaṃ pive |
alaṃ phāsuvihārāya, pahitattassa bhikkhuno ||

With four or five lumps still to eat
Let him then end by drinking water;
For energetic bhikkhus’ needs
This should suffice to live in comfort.
(Theragāthā 983)
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


“The holy life is well proclaimed,
directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
— Sela Sutta
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Dhammanando
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Re: Moderation in food, 6th precept and weight loss

Post by Dhammanando »

And the Dhammasaṅgaṇī Commentary on the same:
As to the term ‘comfort,’ there is comfort and there is discomfort. The eating of these five brahmins produces discomfort, namely, of the:

1. ‘lifted-by-hand-er,’
2. ‘enough-for-the-loincloth-er,’
3. ‘there-gyrator,’
4. ‘crow-pecked one,’
5. ‘meal-vomiter.’

Of these, the first eating much cannot rise by himself, and says, ‘Take my hand’; the second has his stomach so swollen that even standing he cannot wrap his loincloth; the third rolls about where he ate unable to rise; the fourth stuffs his mouth so full that crows can peck at it; the fifth can no more fill his mouth, but vomits then and there.

When all this is not done, the good man takes food so that there will be comfort. Comfort is when the stomach would be full after four or five mouthfuls. For when so much only is eaten and water drunk, the four postures may go on with ease.

Hence the Generalissimo of the Dhamma said:—

“Hath he but eaten mouthfuls four or five,
Let him drink water—here is sure enough
Refreshment for a bhikkhu filled with zeal.”
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


“The holy life is well proclaimed,
directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
— Sela Sutta
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Moderation in food, 6th precept and weight loss

Post by salayatananirodha »

Dhammanando wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:15 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:06 am sāriputta taught to stop a number of mouthfuls from being full to save room for water
anyone know where this is from?
cattāro pañca ālope, abhutvā udakaṃ pive |
alaṃ phāsuvihārāya, pahitattassa bhikkhuno ||

With four or five lumps still to eat
Let him then end by drinking water;
For energetic bhikkhus’ needs
This should suffice to live in comfort.
(Theragāthā 983)
sādhu sādhu sādhu!
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
dharmacorps
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Re: Moderation in food, 6th precept and weight loss

Post by dharmacorps »

Your weight sounds fine for your height. You are worrying about what may happen rather than what is happening. If you continue to lose weight and become alarmed, see a physician.
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Moderation in food, 6th precept and weight loss

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

From June to September 1th I have been slowly losing weight. It's 76kg now. I think it will eventually stop around 74 or 75 kg. It's fine.

PS: I eat breakfast and lunch. If I spend much energy I eat something between the two meals.
I think if I cut the breakfast it will go down quickly like in April/May. In this scenario I think I'd weigh something like 68 or 70 kg. Not joking.
My breakfast is always: half of an avocado, two bananas, sultanas, and oatmeal; plus milk with coffee. I bet there are some 1000 kcal in this. :jawdrop:


PS2: the avocado I'm talking about is this big fellow:

Image
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
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rightviewftw
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Re: Moderation in food, 6th precept and weight loss

Post by rightviewftw »

Try eating more rice, nuts and fatty oils.
If you have access to oil then you shouldn't be losing weight because you can quite easily add 150ml of oil to your meal and it's then a 1200 kcal by itself.

Foods like rice, coconut, coconut oil, coconut milk, fatty meat and some berries (with protein), these foods will easily maintain your weight with a single meal.

Oatmeal, raisins and bananas are foods that are relatively low on calories and have next to no protein.

I think getting enough protein is very important, so it's not only about calories. The way i eat on omad, i get about 1g per kg of bodyweight and it seems alright.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Moderation in food, 6th precept and weight loss

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

rightviewftw wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:39 pm Try eating more rice, nuts and fatty oils.
If you have access to oil then you shouldn't be losing weight because you can quite easily add 150ml of oil to your meal and it's then a 1200 kcal by itself.

Foods like rice, coconut, coconut oil, coconut milk, fatty meat and some berries (with protein), these foods will easily maintain your weight with a single meal.

Oatmeal, raisins and bananas are foods that are relatively low on calories and have next to no protein.

I think getting enough protein is very important, so it's not only about calories. The way i eat on omad, i get about 1g per kg of bodyweight and it seems alright.
Hello my friend.
I made this breakfast having in mind those things:

🥑 to improve satiety in the morning
🍌 for immediate energy. Combined with the fiber of the oatmeal, I'll not have a sudden insulin peak. The sugar of the bananas will be slowly used by the body.
🍚(pretend this is oatmeal) to obtain fibers and improve digestion.
🥛 is the protein of the morning
☕ to stop the melatonin secretion. I wake up at 4 am, so It's still pitch dark. Melatonin keeps being secreted, so I need to stop it.

Currently my weight is still slowly decreasing but it seems it'll stop at some time around 75 kg. Fortunately it's still fine.

I intend to do OMAD at some time in the future. Or maybe not. I don't see how this would be beneficial now to me.

On protein: 1g/kg is too much for me since I became an ovo-lacto vegetarian. I'd have to eat many eggs to reach 76g :toilet: . Despite I eat lentils, they don't contain the essential amino acids that animal proteins contain. May I ask you if you go to the gym? When I used to go to the gym I cared a lot about proteins too.
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
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rightviewftw
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Re: Moderation in food, 6th precept and weight loss

Post by rightviewftw »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:21 pm May I ask you if you go to the gym?
You may ask that and no i don't. I just want enough protein to maintain strength and normal bodily function.

Idk exactly how much i need to maintain the tissues but i guess it's ~50-60g.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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