Monks must set an example. Their speech cannot be worse than what is expected in the secular world. Monk Sujato merely had to speak the truth, namely: "We have a president with multiple allegations of rape & sexual harassment against him".
Monastics protesting social injustice
Re: Monastics protesting social injustice
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice
It's Mx actuallyAloka wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:52 amWas your post directed at me Mr/Ms Bones? I was making a light- hearted comment about internet groups in general and not intentionally refering to anything connected to monks!BrokenBones wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:29 am It's hardly heavy handed 'policing' to call out an outright untruth given by someone who's supposed to be upholding and spreading the Dhamma. Political ideology and hatred has no place in the Buddha's Dhamma. If monks choose to engage in such lowly public talk then they invite censure by the public. Would it be better if laypeople ignored poor behaviour in the Sangha?
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Apologies if I reacted contrary to the actual intent of your post... humour doesn't always translate well on the net.
Metta
Re: Monastics protesting social injustice
So what? It's not like those comments ever accomplish anything or make the monk change his ways. In the worst case, they earn the lay commenter a negative reputation and a threat of kammic retribution for having spoken out against a monk and disrespected him.BrokenBones wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:30 amI'm a lay Buddhist... it's my religion as much as anyone else's. The 'pledge' to the Dhamma at its most basic level is the five precepts and refuge... it's perfectly legitimate to call out a high ranking representative if they're putting themselves out there with their political ideas wrapped in 'Dharma'. A monk 'cannot' do whatever they want with 'their' religion... or at least if they do they lay themselves open to comment.
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One thing I've learned among Buddhists is that expecting anything from Buddhists, esp. from monks, is too much. Even just expecting common decency or common courtesy is too much.
Lol. Dream on.Their speech cannot be worse than what is expected in the secular world.
Buddhists are not limited by the rules of the world, remember?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: Monastics protesting social injustice
There's an open invitation to meet whichever monk (Ahimsako or Sucitto, normally) hosts the online Cittaviveka lay forum. A talk followed by Q&A. I'm pretty sure you will receive uncommon decency and uncommon courtesy. The time difference between Slovenia and the UK can't be too different. Sunday afternoons. Let me know and I'll arrange the Zoom password for you.
Re: Monastics protesting social injustice
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice
Ah... the good old threat of kammic retribution... the Dhamma equivalent of Godwin's Law... how many Lama's/monks have used that line for their own nefarious ends? And by your logic, nobody should have dialogue with anybody nor comment on others 'teachings'... you won't make me change my ways nor I yours... it's a wonder the Buddha bothered preaching at all. Perhaps criticism may prompt someone to examine their own speech/actions. Btw... a perusal of tos might be beneficial.binocular wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:15 amSo what? It's not like those comments ever accomplish anything or make the monk change his ways. In the worst case, they earn the lay commenter a negative reputation and a threat of kammic retribution for having spoken out against a monk and disrespected him.BrokenBones wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:30 amI'm a lay Buddhist... it's my religion as much as anyone else's. The 'pledge' to the Dhamma at its most basic level is the five precepts and refuge... it's perfectly legitimate to call out a high ranking representative if they're putting themselves out there with their political ideas wrapped in 'Dharma'. A monk 'cannot' do whatever they want with 'their' religion... or at least if they do they lay themselves open to comment.
Metta
Re: Monastics protesting social injustice
The thing is you do not know that it is an untruth. That is your opinion. The bhikkhu's opinion may well be that what he said is correct. You and the Bhikkhu have differing opinions.BrokenBones wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:29 am It's hardly heavy handed 'policing' to call out an outright untruth
There is plenty to suggest that the US president is of low moral character, from a Buddhist perspective, like him or not.
Re: Monastics protesting social injustice
Mr Man
Most world leaders areThere is plenty to suggest that the US president is of low moral character, from a Buddhist perspective, like him or not.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice
This is essentially the crux of the issue. The monk then gets mired in the worldly battles instead of striving to rise above them.BrokenBones wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:29 am . If monks choose to engage in such lowly public talk then they invite censure by the public.
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Bhikkhu Jayasāra -http://www.youtube.com/studentofthepath and https://maggasekha.org/
Bhikkhu Jayasāra -http://www.youtube.com/studentofthepath and https://maggasekha.org/
Re: Monastics protesting social injustice
Bhante, The monk is a Maha Thera who has done a great deal for the Sasana. Do you feel his behaviour is inappropriate and if so on what grounds?Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:59 pmThis is essentially the crux of the issue. The monk then gets mired in the worldly battles instead of striving to rise above them.BrokenBones wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:29 am . If monks choose to engage in such lowly public talk then they invite censure by the public.
Re: Monastics protesting social injustice
It's not my logic.BrokenBones wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:35 pmAh... the good old threat of kammic retribution... the Dhamma equivalent of Godwin's Law... how many Lama's/monks have used that line for their own nefarious ends? And by your logic, nobody should have dialogue with anybody nor comment on others 'teachings'... you won't make me change my ways nor I yours... it's a wonder the Buddha bothered preaching at all.
I've learned from Buddhists that if one doesn't like something, one must leave. No discussion, no negotiation, no clarification, no reciprocation, nothing, just all or nothing.
Maybe not every Buddhist is that way, but this is the bottom line.
This is not a criticism. If Buddhists want Buddhism to be this way, that's their thing. It's their religion/spirituality.
Implying that the critic was right?Perhaps criticism may prompt someone to examine their own speech/actions.
Why??Btw... a perusal of tos might be beneficial.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: Monastics protesting social injustice
I can't be bothered to look up what fallacy exactly you're making. The issue was that expectations are misplaced.Sam Vara wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:49 amThere's an open invitation to meet whichever monk (Ahimsako or Sucitto, normally) hosts the online Cittaviveka lay forum. A talk followed by Q&A. I'm pretty sure you will receive uncommon decency and uncommon courtesy. The time difference between Slovenia and the UK can't be too different. Sunday afternoons. Let me know and I'll arrange the Zoom password for you.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice
The title Maha Thera is not an indication of any kind of real wisdom in and of itself from my experience sadly, as the Buddha said you have to live with someone for a long time to see how they really are. That does not mean a monastic is not worthy of respect, but just because someone is a Maha Thera does not mean their actions should not be questioned. This is the case even in the Vinaya, where the junior monastic is expected to call out the senior monastic who is their preceptor/acariya and support them in stopping unskillful behavior.Mr Man wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:17 pmBhante, The monk is a Maha Thera who has done a great deal for the Sasana. Do you feel his behaviour is inappropriate and if so on what grounds?Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:59 pmThis is essentially the crux of the issue. The monk then gets mired in the worldly battles instead of striving to rise above them.BrokenBones wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:29 am . If monks choose to engage in such lowly public talk then they invite censure by the public.
Bhante Sujato is not my preceptor or acariya, he lives on the other side of the world from me, I've never met him, nor lived with him. Has he done things that are red flags to me? yes. has he done wonderful things for the sasana? yes, in fact he is part of the group of 4 monastics(Gunaratana, Analayo, Brahmali, Sujato) who's scholarship I trust and check my understanding against regularly. but in essence all I have are his writings, translations, and internet posts, so how can I have anything but a cursory understanding of who Bhante is?
As I said in my last post, my response is to support the monks who you feel are practicing rightly, and allow others to support those who they feel are practicing rightly, regardless how you feel about that monk.
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Bhikkhu Jayasāra -http://www.youtube.com/studentofthepath and https://maggasekha.org/
Bhikkhu Jayasāra -http://www.youtube.com/studentofthepath and https://maggasekha.org/
Re: Monastics protesting social injustice
I may have misunderstood. I took your comment to mean that you had expectations that monks would treat you with decency and respect, and that they didn't; and that subsequently, you no longer expect them to behave in that way. Is that right?binocular wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:34 pmI can't be bothered to look up what fallacy exactly you're making. The issue was that expectations are misplaced.Sam Vara wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:49 amThere's an open invitation to meet whichever monk (Ahimsako or Sucitto, normally) hosts the online Cittaviveka lay forum. A talk followed by Q&A. I'm pretty sure you will receive uncommon decency and uncommon courtesy. The time difference between Slovenia and the UK can't be too different. Sunday afternoons. Let me know and I'll arrange the Zoom password for you.
If so, then there is an opportunity to meet monks who might amend that expectation by treating you with decency and respect. Is that not good?