Obstacles to going forth

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
bhante dhamma
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Obstacles to going forth

Post by bhante dhamma »

Salutations in the Triple Gem to all sādhu-jana(s),

I have a few lay acquaintacs that are teetering on the brink of going forth but are still unable to break through some barriers they have in their mind about the benefits of ordination over lay life or example. Often times the contents of the conversations always repeat themselves maybe due to my advice also lacking in content so i would like to ask/invite you to share your experience or sutta reflections on this particular aspect of Buddhist life. Have you ever wanted to go forth? What happened? What were the main obstacles to it occuring, and when you did ordain looking back what would you share to somone just starting the Brahmacariya?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Obstacles to going forth

Post by Ceisiwr »

The only thing holding me back is not being able to see my family as much, as we are quite close.
“No one in the world, Dhotaka,
can I release from doubting.
But knowing the most excellent Dhamma,
you will cross over the flood."


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binocular
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Re: Obstacles to going forth

Post by binocular »

bhante dhamma wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:24 amHave you ever wanted to go forth?
What happened?
What were the main obstacles to it occuring
Yes, I want(ed) to ordain.
Being female, too old, and the whole hocus pocus around bhikkhuni ordination.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
auto
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Re: Obstacles to going forth

Post by auto »

I get my feeling of 'sense of loss' and coming into terms with it in other places, no need to renounce.

ordination would be too big loss for me to take, just thinking about it will make sensations.

the main thing is: i won't do it alone, like one day i think i go ordain. Since i have no idea how it is done. The idea of knocking at the monastery door,
and yelling: "Hey let me in, i'm going to sit here from now own" is ok"? so where i get the food please?. Its stupid, sorry.

Why did you ordained? i don't remember reading about ordained people tell why they ordain, same way, i don't understand how some know they will want to become a cook so they go and study it.

there is no incentive to ordain, why should i do it? i don't feel the need to do it. Doing things without no particular reason is what it means to be a monk? to study hive mind?
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Re: Obstacles to going forth

Post by Chanh Dao »

bhante dhamma wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:24 am Salutations in the Triple Gem to all sādhu-jana(s),

I have a few lay acquaintacs that are teetering on the brink of going forth but are still unable to break through some barriers they have in their mind about the benefits of ordination over lay life or example. Often times the contents of the conversations always repeat themselves maybe due to my advice also lacking in content so i would like to ask/invite you to share your experience or sutta reflections on this particular aspect of Buddhist life. Have you ever wanted to go forth? What happened? What were the main obstacles to it occuring, and when you did ordain looking back what would you share to somone just starting the Brahmacariya?


Hello hello, 2 years ago I chose to go forth into the life of homelessness. Initially I contacted Monastics online in Thailand and consulted with them about the possibility of ordaining and they were encouraging.

Than I saved up some money, flew to Thailand, had meetings with monks of various traditions and eventually ordained.

The biggest obstacle was developing the faith to just do it. The deep intention to dive in and give up my preconceptions notions about what I was supposed to be doing or what I was expecting to happen.


Well first of all, you don't need to ordain, no one does.
Second of all if you really want to do it just do it. Do your best to seek out a situation that is suitable for you, consult with other monks and ordain.

Also be very mindful of the independence. When you ordain formally you are now a bhikkhu. A full fledged member of the Sangha and in some ways it's fairly up to you to make sure you get appropriate training according to your needs.

Sometimes where you ordain is an incredible place to be trained. Sometimes a few months after ordaining you simply find out that it's not a healthy place for you and you move one. Maybe to another temple, maybe to the Forrest, maybe to another country.

Monastic life is meant to be accessible that's why it's called taking refuge. So don't neccasarily see it in this extremely rigid and intense kind of way.

See it as a community of people who are embodying and devoted to the Buddha's teachings to various degrees.

In the west there is this extremely rigid and exclusive view of being a monk and Monastic life but in fact that's not really true. Monastic are often people coming from poverty, mental illness, desperation, desire for social status etc. The Buddha welcomes them all to go forth.

That means you too. That's my advice . :namaste:
auto
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Re: Obstacles to going forth

Post by auto »

Chanh Dao wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:35 pm Hello hello, 2 years ago I chose to go forth into the life of homelessness.
What do you mean by homelessness? no registered place you could call home where you could return to, everyday a hassle to find a place to stay?
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confusedlayman
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Re: Obstacles to going forth

Post by confusedlayman »

i want to ordain but i have family support repsonisbility.. if i earn some lots of cash i give to them and run in to monestry and never come back to lay life
dont think
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Re: Obstacles to going forth

Post by Chanh Dao »

A Bhikkhu is traditionally understood to be a homeless wanderer.

Going forth is going forth from the life of a householder into homelessness.

Yes there are many possible temples to stay at but at the end of the day I don't own any of those and I am able to stay there because of the support of others.

In this way, I am homeless.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Obstacles to going forth

Post by confusedlayman »

Chanh Dao wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:26 pm A Bhikkhu is traditionally understood to be a homeless wanderer.

Going forth is going forth from the life of a householder into homelessness.

Yes there are many possible temples to stay at but at the end of the day I don't own any of those and I am able to stay there because of the support of others.

In this way, I am homeless.
sadhu sadhu sadhu
dont think
auto
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Re: Obstacles to going forth

Post by auto »

Chanh Dao wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:26 pm A Bhikkhu is traditionally understood to be a homeless wanderer.

Going forth is going forth from the life of a householder into homelessness.

Yes there are many possible temples to stay at but at the end of the day I don't own any of those and I am able to stay there because of the support of others.

In this way, I am homeless.
i would think of 'going forth' as a knowledge. Body is a sack what houses internal organs. I am visiting these houses.
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Re: Obstacles to going forth

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:30 am The only thing holding me back is not being able to see my family as much, as we are quite close.
My family was the most important thing to me in life, until Dhamma edged that out and even though I was part of a close Italian family, I had to at least attempt to persue the calling I had to monasticism.

I know some traditions really talk about totally cutting yourself off from your family, but I don't see that in the vinaya, you do need to give up your family as a Lay person, but at least once your senior enough you can visit and even take care of your parents.

If the calling becomes strong enough to tip the scales, you'll go just like the buddha did, with his parents crying and lamenting, it was rough for my family but they know I am happy being a monk and help a lot of people, it took them time but they've accepted my wish and after 6 years away have come to terms with it.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Obstacles to going forth

Post by Ceisiwr »

Bhikkhu_Jayasara
My family was the most important thing to me in life, until Dhamma edged that out and even though I was part of a close Italian family, I had to at least attempt to persue the calling I had to monasticism.

I know some traditions really talk about totally cutting yourself off from your family, but I don't see that in the vinaya, you do need to give up your family as a Lay person, but at least once your senior enough you can visit and even take care of your parents.

If the calling becomes strong enough to tip the scales, you'll go just like the buddha did, with his parents crying and lamenting, it was rough for my family but they know I am happy being a monk and help a lot of people, it took them time but they've accepted my wish and after 6 years away have come to terms with it.
Thank you for sharing bhante. At the moment I feel caught between the two. I'm sure in time I will come to a decision one way or another. I plan on visiting some monasteries in the UK as a guest once lockdown is over, to get a feel for it. I think I will have a better idea then.
“No one in the world, Dhotaka,
can I release from doubting.
But knowing the most excellent Dhamma,
you will cross over the flood."


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confusedlayman
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Re: Obstacles to going forth

Post by confusedlayman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:30 am The only thing holding me back is not being able to see my family as much, as we are quite close.
this attachment is the biggest obstacle... if u are in uk you shouldnt worry as all cities are just few hours drive .. I request you to ordain if you think its the right thing
dont think
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Obstacles to going forth

Post by salayatananirodha »

my mom depends on me financially
i have various unpaid debts
i may or may not be a paṇḍaka
not sure how well i could handle some of the practical concerns due to back surgery
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
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Re: Obstacles to going forth

Post by Suranga »

bhante dhamma wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:24 am Have you ever wanted to go forth? What happened? What were the main obstacles to it occuring, and when you did ordain looking back what would you share to somone just starting the Brahmacariya?
I did go forth (Twice).last time in Myanmar. I am planning to go forth again right after this pandemic.May be a day will come ..which I never come back to lay life again. Looking back my ordination ..it was one of the greatest times in my life. Due to many defilements I couldn't hold on to it. But now I am working with my defilements and other issues. The main issue in the monk life was to pass that initial change. After you pass that initial period(may be couple of years) you would be fine. In my case looking back I feel the main regret I have now is to coming back to lay life (after a temporary ordination) . Not sure I will get such a blessed chance again in this life.But I try again. Bcos who knows what will happen tomorrow. may be today I might die. Hope it will not happen and this pandemic dies before me..


P.S. Unlike the last time ..today I found ways and understand how to work with my defilement s.
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