Where to Ordain --philosophy matching

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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bksubhuti
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Where to Ordain --philosophy matching

Post by bksubhuti »

I posted in the general section but it should be archived here.
https://americanmonk.org/where-to-ordain/
ChristianDhamma
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Re: Where to Ordain --philosophy matching

Post by ChristianDhamma »

Dear Bhikkhu Subhuti,

first thanking for the article and the efforts to write it. :namaste:

I want to ask if the Venerable can something say about the centers of Mogok Sayadaw?

Thanking very much in advance
Christian
bksubhuti
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Re: Where to Ordain --philosophy matching

Post by bksubhuti »

They don't make the list. I don't know of a single mogok monastery that follows vinaya.

I also don't know much about the method. Much of it involves learning paticcasamuppada by study and contemplating it.

Very few foreigners, if any at all ordain there with long term intentions. I don't know of any who have done so.

Lastly the center near Yangon hosted the "ma ba tha" conference in 2017. Don't know them? Google it.
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Eko Care
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Re: Where to Ordain --philosophy matching

Post by Eko Care »

Okasa bhante, you say,
bksubhuti wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:12 am Where to Ordain?
The short answer is:
If you are looking for vinaya (places that don’t touch money), and you believe in the commentaries and Abhidhamma and want to meditate, you have two choices, Pa-Auk and Na-Uyana.

If you don’t believe in the commentaries and Abhidhamma,you are best off at a Thai Forest Monastery like Ajahn Chah (Mahanikaya) or Ajahn Maha Boowa (Dhammayut) monasteries.
And you believe that the place to ordain depends on the individual's modern beliefs.
The first thing I always ask is, “Do you like the Abhidhamma and Commentaries?”
Back to my first question: “Do you like the Abhidhamma and Commentaries?”

I ask this first because Westerners and also Asians who are “Westernized” usually do not like the Abhidhamma and Commentaries. This quickly filters things down and my advice is not really for them and we can tidy up the conversation quickly with a few Thai mentions which they can explore from there.
You recommend the following monasteries,
In Sri Lanka there is the Na-Uyana of the “Galduwa” (Cave Dweller’s) tradition.
  • Na-Uyana Forest Monastery, Sri Lanka: Na-Uyana is a fine monastery with over 5,000 acres. There are 4 or 5 monasteries combined into this monastery with different “feels” to each of them. There is also a learning center 20 minutes down the road.Na-Uyana places an emphasis on the Pa-Auk system, but you are allowed to practice other methods as well under guidance. However, Na-Uyana does not allow monks to go out for Goenka retreats during the first 5 years.
  • International Theravada Institute: This will be a great monastery to build great monks. I think this might be the best place to train and ordain, but you will need to be patient on learning full time meditation. There will be time scheduled for retreats during the training though. The abbots are very kind and highly intelligent. They might be some of the most well learned monks in Sri Lanka actually. I might go there some time later on to complete some studies and training.
  • Renagiri Lena Forest Monastery (Diddeniya): This ancient cave monastery which is 30 minutes away from Na-Uyana is primarily a learning monastery with very few foreigners, if any at all. However, they should be equipped to ordain foreigners. A good solid foundation will be found at this monastery with really really really good vinaya. The monks at this monastery are very good monks. The chief abbot is Venerable GnanaSila and speaks very clear English. +94 71 080 8623 (in Sri Lanka) 071 080 8623
In Myanmar (Burma), you have the choice of Pa-Auk and Pa-Auk.
  • Pa-Auk Pyin Oo Lwin: This is one of the newest of the Pa-Auk monasteries which is designed for foreigners from the ground up. Venerable Pa-Auk Sayadawgyi lives and teaches at this monastery.
  • Pa-Auk Dawei: Probably my recommended place for new monks who want to ordain in Myanmar but cannot get into Maymyo although I have never been there. One of my friends has ordained there and he is very happy. The abbot, Sayadaw U Kundadhana was Venerable Pa-auk Sayadawgyi’s right-hand man for fifteen plus years. He will teach you how to be a monk and give you proper individual monastic training.
In Thailand,
  • There are 12 monasteries in Thailand which follow the vinaya very closely to the Commentaries and Abhidhamma. The main center is Wat Khao Sanamchai in Hua Hin which is a learning center.
We like to know more about the International Theravada Institute in Sri Lanka which you praise and also about Wat Khao Sanamchai which you have also praised here and in your another article Vinaya Comparison of Monastery Allowances

Vandami.
Last edited by Eko Care on Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Where to Ordain --philosophy matching

Post by Dhammanando »

Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:51 pm We like to know more about [...] Wat Khao Sanamchai which you have also praised here
It's a monastery in the tradition of the late Acharn Naeb Mahaniranonda, a laywoman who taught Abhidhamma and a form of kāyānupassanā based on contemplation of dukkha in the four postures. I don't know if she's alive, but the resident meditation teacher for many years is/was Acharn Naeb's disciple, Acharn Prani Samreungrat, also a laywoman. The monastery is in two sections, with the monks in one section practising Acharn Naeb-style meditation under Prani's guidance, and those in the other section studying Pali and Abhidhamma.

There are a few translations of articles and talks by Acharns Naeb and Prani here:

https://www.sites.google.com/site/roundfree/texts

The Vinaya observance in the monastery is probably the strictest in the whole of Thailand; slightly stricter than in the Ajahn Chah tradition and very much stricter than any Dhammayutt forest wat that I've seen.

To train there it will probably be necessary to know Thai, for none of the resident teachers speak English and no translators are available.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Eko Care
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Re: Where to Ordain --philosophy matching

Post by Eko Care »

Many merits for the information, bhante.
Now I guess our RobertK's lineage is related to the above as well.
robertk wrote:
And bhante you said,
Dhammanando wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:05 pm The Vinaya observance in the monastery is probably the strictest in the whole of Thailand;
And it has also praised by Bhante Subhuti for having good Vinaya and Classical views.
In the same way, bhante Subuti said,
bksubhuti wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:12 amRenagiri Lena Forest Monastery (Diddeniya): A good solid foundation will be found at this monastery with really really really good vinaya.
And I have heard this monastery is strict in classical views as well.

So I see a relationship with Classical views and Good Vinaya.
GnosticMind
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Re: Where to Ordain --philosophy matching

Post by GnosticMind »

Bhikkhu Subhuti wrote,

"Lastly the center near Yangon hosted the "ma ba tha" conference in 2017. Don't know them? Google it."

Ok -- I just did -- and it looks like hardcore nationalist trouble rather than Buddhism.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22ma+b ... 9NBS_10hhM

More calling for the blood of Muslims -- dangerous talk in these times.

I trained in a Burmese temple with some of these characters, nearly 30 years ago -- it was like learning meditation from a squaddie.

A case of "meditate ! Or else...."
bksubhuti
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Re: Where to Ordain --philosophy matching

Post by bksubhuti »

I have been away from this website for a long time because people are disrespectful.

The Meditation Center below Wat Khao Sanamchai is separate from the monastery. They are a lay organization which supports the monastery on the hill and practice the 4 posture method. The monastery on the hill is mostly a pariyatti monastery. During the breaks, some monks go down the mountain, Pa-Auk Thailand or other places.

As for IIT, it is still in construction. They have 15 monks there for their first vassa.. That should show how impressive the teachers are. They are striving to build the best monastery that has ever been around. I do believe them. They are sincere monks who have invested the time to properly train themselves. You will find few other places with scholar knowledge and classical training like this place.
However, don't expect to do too much meditation. Maybe during the breaks. I think there will be 2 hours per day scheduled.

The place will probably be open for other people in 2022 which is not so far away.

As I said in my very long monastery recommendation... try to listen to the dhamma talks of the monks you wish to ordain under. If you don't like the dhamma talks, you will probably be unhappy to ordain at such a place.

I saw this which might be useful: https://kshemabhoomi.com/our-focus.html

Yes.. the ones that are strict in vinaya are usually the ones that follow classical pali buddhism and the commentaries.
The other Thai monasteries often disregard much of the commentary and draw their own conclusions and also follow the vinaya mokh.
Not using money is key rule that will tell you that 90% of the vinaya is followed. However, 90% is not enough. Take reading as an example. If you only understand 90% of what you read, it can be frustrating.

I should probably update my article about how Pa-Auk is filled with visiting monks. Many vising monks respect vinaya..others only do while they are visiting. Pa-Auk Mawlamyin has about 50% or more that are "Short term vinaya" monks. Basically they superficially renounce their illegal items and come to meditate. I don't know the details on what is superficial. Few questions are asked of these monks, and the admin is aware that monks store their cash at the tea shop near the gate or other places. I know because I complained about this and was told to ignore it.

Pa-Auk Pyin Oo Lwin.has about 20% "short term vinaya monks."

It is not all bad, but can be frustrating. It gives monks a chance to "try" vinaya and meditation. Many monks come and go, but some stay on, and then really renounce their stuff. Without that, vinaya would probably be dead in Myanmar.

Many monasteries, especially Thai Forest Traditioin follow this exclusive linage thing and exclude monks from the patimokkha which is not wise, and against vinaya.

Pa-Auk is basically open to anyone and does not ask many questions. "They know they should not come", Said Pa-Auk Sayadawgyi, yet prohibits the patimokkha reciter from make an announcement beforehand that those who have nissaggi items should not be there.
"They know they should not be there"... but they all come.

What should be done, is the monks who truly follow vinaya and who have renounced their nissaggi should be welcome to the patimokkha while the others should be warned about the consequences. I think IIT will be doing what is proper similar to Wat Khao which is open to outside vinaya monks or monks who have fully renounced their nissaggi (with questions asked).
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Eko Care
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Re: Where to Ordain --philosophy matching

Post by Eko Care »

Just to add some more information to what Ven. Subhuti has already mentioned.

In Sri Lanka there is a Forest Vinaya Sect called Sri Kayani Yogasrama Samstha where you can find many forest monasteries to stay long time if your vinaya is good and traditional, but most of them are not suitable for a novice foreign monk, because of the language problem and lack of senior trainer monks. You can stay there later.
  • Bhaddekavihari forest monastery, Tanjan Tenna.(solitary living monks one for one village, central meeting place, pindapatha, secluded kutis miles apart along a long area, foreign monks, No formal teacher for foreigners yet, with and without wild animals, affiliated to bhaddekavihari Meditation Center Ripplebrook)
  • Nimalava Forest Monasstery (remote, wild animals, good vinaya, less English speaking)
  • Kudumbigala Forest Monastery (very remote, many wild animals, may be the most beautiful ancient landscapes)
  • Sri Nanarama Vivekashramaya (English speaking kind teacher monk, good vinaya, but optional Goenka retreats in Vassa)
  • Mitirigala Dharmayatanaya (good vinaya, wet climate, affiliated to Na Uyana)
  • Many more little monasteries and secluded kutis in the jungle.
See also:
Sri_Lankan_Forest_Tradition#Contemporary_forest_monasteries

Buddhist Forest Monasteries and Meditation Centres in Sri Lanka, A Guide for Foreign Buddhist Monastics and Lay Practitioners
Updated: April 2018


And about Burma, I recently heard about several monasteries where strict Vinaya is said to be followed and some Dhutangas are observed other than the Pa Auk branches. One of them is Mahavihara as I remember it.
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Eko Care
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Re: Where to Ordain --philosophy matching

Post by Eko Care »

Here are some of the information that I could found about Monastaries in Thailand that are said to be protecting Dhamma Vinaya. More information and contact details are to be found on embracing-buddhism.jimdofree.com/retreat-guide/thailand.
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Wat Khao Sanamchai (Hua Hin)

Tradition: Thai Mahā-Nikāya, of Myanmar descent. Member of the Dhamma-Vinaya Protection Network.

Teacher/Method: The monastery is partitioned into two sections, the lower and the upper monastery. The current abbot is Ajahn Sombun, an expert in abhidhamma, ­Pāli and vinaya of 22 years standing as a Buddhist monk (bhikkhu). He speaks no English but at least Thai and Pāli. The abbot stresses an authentic alignment with the scriptures (tipiṭaka), both, in terms of monastic discipline (vinaya) and meditation (bhāvana). The main method of meditation is mindfulness on the four postures (four postures: iriyāpatha) but since the monastery has a strong focus on scriptual knowledge, other meditaion techniques are permitted as they are found in the texts of the pāli-canon. Although the lower monastery allows only the four postures as meditation approach.

Vinaya: Very strong and rigorous alignment with the textual sources of the pāli-canon in combination with the commentaries (aṭṭhakathā) and sub-commentaries (ṭīkā). The vinaya is well emphazised, understood and taught and therefore present in daily life. A unique place for living and receiving training in authentic vinaya.

Dhamma Study and General Training:
Upper Monastery: The upper monastery has a strong focus on textual studies, with potentially extensive curriculum (just around two hours of vinaya as subject are bare min.) but meditation is well possible too in ones free time. If one wishes one could fill the whole day with studies. There are eight professional teachers for scriptual studies at Wat Khao Sanamchai. Four are teaching Pāli, three abhidhamma and one vinaya. One teacher is available for vipassanā (insight meditation) instructions. Seemingly no English books are available. Optionally one may choose training in manual skills too: making all of the three robes, brooms, bowl-stands, bowl-bags etc.

The Lower Monastery: No study whatsoever is permitted.

Vinaya: Very strong and rigorous alignment with the textual sources of the pāli-canon in combination with the commentaries (aṭṭhakathā) and sub-commentaries (ṭīkā). The vinaya is well emphazised, understood and taught and therefore present in daily life. A unique place for living and receiving training in authentic vinaya.


Tipaksong Mangalasiddhi Yagon (shorthand: Tipaksong Mongkun)

Tradition: Affiliated with Thai Mahā-Nikāya, of Myanmar descent. Member of the Dhamma-Vinaya Protection Network. Originally Dhammayuttika Nikāya

Teacher/Method: Ekarasa Bhikkhu (Thai: Phra Ekarat) is of four years standing (vassa age) as a Buddhist monk and is in his thirties. He ordained at Wat Pah Darapirom within the Dhammayutika Nikāya with Ajahn Ñānavaro as his preceptor. He learned for four years at Wat Khao Sanamchai the Dhammapada, Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha, Anumodanagāthā (verses of giving thanks) under Ajahn Sombun, the Visuddhimagga, its commentary and sub-commentary under Ajahn Amonchai, the entire canonical Vinaya collection (vinayapiṭaka), its commentary and sub-commentary under Ajahn Sampan and Pāli under Ajahn Dtoa. He is very kind and helpful and has as his personal approach in practice the deliberate attempt to speak softly. He also intends his monastery to be a place of dhūtaṅga practice (mild asceticism) in that the community has to go for alms and live in the forest as well as other forms of the entire set of 13 altogether. He encourages but does not demand to be devoted to wakefulness (Pāli: jagara) and so to reduce sleep to just four hours within the middle watch of the night. He is very flexible in allowing practices which accord with the Buddhist scriptures and its commentaries. As his guide he takes a commentarial explanation of the Maṅgala-sutta in that he allows for individual approaches. This is of course perfectly in line with the root texts themselves.

Dhamma Study: Self initiated and self directed studies are possible, in full- or part-time. There are no English books available.

Vinaya: Very strong and rigorous alignment with the textual sources of the pāli-canon in combination with the commentaries (aṭṭhakathā) and sub-commentaries (ṭīkā). The vinaya is well emphazised, understood and taught and therefore present in daily life. A unique place for living and receiving training in authentic vinaya.


Pa Auk Tawya Meditation-Centre (Thailand)

Teacher/Method: Three to four different teachers are available for dhamma-vinaya instructions: Vens. Vimala, Revata, Kumārābhivaṃsa and ven. Bodhiñāna. They usually are available every alternate day to answer questions and give practical guidance. The main source of practical reference are the works of ven. Pa Auk Sayadaw, in whoms tradition this monastery was established. They are based firmly on the ancient scriptual tradition (Tipiṭaka, Commentaries, Sub-Commentaries). English is medium for teaching. The teachers combine qualities of great learning and leadership as well as kindness.

Dhamma Study: Dhamma studies in full time are possible, though the centre focuses mainly on meditation.

Vinaya Observance: Close to Tipiṭaka, Commentary and Sub-Commentary.
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