Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

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nmjojola
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Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by nmjojola »

Does anyone know of any Dhammayut temple, or any Dhammayut Thai Forest Teacher, in Thailand, that utilizes, or is at least familiar with on friendly terms the type of outlook on Dhamma like that of Nanavira, Nanoslav Nanamoli, Akincano, etc.? Much appreciated
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by SarathW »

I hope that the following link may have some information just to start the topic.

Is there a big difference between linages?

https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.p ... ta#p573259
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

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nmjojola wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:48 pm Does anyone know of any Dhammayut temple, or any Dhammayut Thai Forest Teacher, in Thailand, that utilizes, or is at least familiar with on friendly terms the type of outlook on Dhamma like that of Nanavira, Nanoslav Nanamoli, Akincano, etc.? Much appreciated
:anjali:
No. You will not find an overall institution interested in such particular teachings. However, most places will not stop you from individual studies, unless you go around trying to 'preach your views and convert everyone to the one true dhamma' etc.
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by DooDoot »

nmjojola wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:48 pm Does anyone know of any Dhammayut temple, or any Dhammayut Thai Forest Teacher, in Thailand, that utilizes, or is at least familiar with on friendly terms the type of outlook on Dhamma like that of Nanavira, Nanoslav Nanamoli, Akincano, etc.? Much appreciated
What is the outlook of Nanavira, Nanoslav Nanamoli, Akincano? Please list their core doctrines. Thank you
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by pitakele »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:44 am What is the outlook of Nanavira, Nanoslav Nanamoli, Akincano?
Seems there are plenty of resources online if you are interested

https://nanavira.org/notes-on-dhamma

http://www.pathpresspublications.com/en/page/books
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by DooDoot »

pitakele wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:08 am if you are interested
Why would I be interested? Merely attempting to assist the questioner.
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by pitakele »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:54 am
pitakele wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:08 am if you are interested
Why would I be interested? Merely attempting to assist the questioner.
The op's question was re Dhammayut temples in Thailand familiar with that stream of Buddhist thought.
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nmjojola
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by nmjojola »

pitakele wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:25 am
DooDoot wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:54 am
pitakele wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:08 am if you are interested
Why would I be interested? Merely attempting to assist the questioner.
The op's question was re Dhammayut temples in Thailand familiar with that stream of Buddhist thought.
Precisely. Or at least a monk who is, doesn't have to be that the/a temple itself is 'dedicated' to it per say. Just the name of a monk whom I can look into if anyone knows of one and I can take it from there. Even if they aren't currently living in Thailand that would be okay I suppose so long as they are Dhammayut.
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by gavesako »

nmjojola wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:45 pm
pitakele wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:25 am
DooDoot wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:54 am
Why would I be interested? Merely attempting to assist the questioner.
The op's question was re Dhammayut temples in Thailand familiar with that stream of Buddhist thought.
Precisely. Or at least a monk who is, doesn't have to be that the/a temple itself is 'dedicated' to it per say. Just the name of a monk whom I can look into if anyone knows of one and I can take it from there. Even if they aren't currently living in Thailand that would be okay I suppose so long as they are Dhammayut.
It's very unlikely that you will find a Thai Dhammayut monk who has any interest in reading Sartre and Heidegger as a prerequisite to Dhamma practice.
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nmjojola
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by nmjojola »

gavesako wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:22 pm
nmjojola wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:45 pm
pitakele wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:25 am
The op's question was re Dhammayut temples in Thailand familiar with that stream of Buddhist thought.
Precisely. Or at least a monk who is, doesn't have to be that the/a temple itself is 'dedicated' to it per say. Just the name of a monk whom I can look into if anyone knows of one and I can take it from there. Even if they aren't currently living in Thailand that would be okay I suppose so long as they are Dhammayut.
It's very unlikely that you will find a Thai Dhammayut monk who has any interest in reading Sartre and Heidegger as a prerequisite to Dhamma practice.
Just to clarify I'm looking for someone in Dhammayut who is already familiar, I dont care to introduce anyone to it, but either way yes I understand the likelihood of finding such isn't great.
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by DooDoot »

nmjojola wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:45 pm Precisely. Or at least a monk who is, doesn't have to be that the/a temple itself is 'dedicated' to it per say. Just the name of a monk whom I can look into if anyone knows of one and I can take it from there. Even if they aren't currently living in Thailand that would be okay I suppose so long as they are Dhammayut.
Nanavira & Nanoslav Nanamoli appearred to be searching thru the suttas rather than completely realized the Dhamma. Nanavira's incomplete attempt to understand Dependent Origination was followed by Nanoslav Nanamoli's incomplete attempt. Its unlikely any learned Thai monk would follow the teachings of these Western wanderers. For example, imagine attempting to translate Nanoslav Nanamoli's convoluted words about Pali from Italian, to English, to Thai. What a nightmare. This said, i am only aware of Maha Nikaya monks (such as Buddhadasa, Ajahn Chah & Payutto) who have taught here & now dependent origination. It seems at least the Dhammayut monks such as Ajahn Mun & Maha Boowa taught the Three Lifetimes. Somdet Phra Sangharaja Chao Krommaluang Vajirañāṇasaṃvara did at least on one occasion teach heaven & hell where within the mind rather than are "ancient geography".

For example, Nanoslav Nanamoli wrote:
Thus, although we can agree that birth is some sort of a ‘beginning’, so to speak, a “manifestation of the aggregates,” what obliges us to think that that beginning has ended there? The fact that one keeps accepting and using the five-aggregates, the fact that one is constantly involved with the world of one’s senses, doesn’t that mean that one’s manifestation of aggregates is still present? And would one be able to desire various things in the world, if those things were not manifested? If one were able to relinquish any attachment for his own body, would one be bothered when that body falls apart and dies? It is because one affirms that manifestation of the five-aggregates, through desire-and-lust for them, that the manifestation exists, it comes-into-being—with being, birth is (bhavapaccayā jāti). When one regards it as ‘mine’, one ages, falls sick and dies (and also experiences any other misery possible in this life)—with birth, ageing-and-death (jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ). If there is no being whatsoever, would manifestation be able to manifest itself? And if nothing manifested, would one be able to appropriate it? And if there is nothing which belongs to one, would one suffer on account of those things breaking up and disappearing? No, because one has escaped.
It appears above Nanoslav Nanamoli has misunderstood the meaning of the Pali words "manifestation of the aggregates" ("khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo"). His statement: "because one affirms that manifestation of the five-aggregates, through desire-and-lust for them, that the manifestation exists" appears contrary to the suttas & sounds like solipsism. Nanoslav Nanamoli appears to regard the aggregates as something "static" that are affirmed into existence via solipsism.

In reality, the term "khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo" refers to how the aggregates, for puthujjana, both internally ('oneself') & externally (others), always change their composition and a different category (nikaya) of "a being" (satta) is imputed upon each different manifestation. For example, studious aggregates are called "a student"; angry aggregates are called "a demon"; loving aggregates are called "a brahma being"; medical aggregates are called "a doctor"; aggregates that birth & breast feed children are called "a mother", etc, as explained on MN 86, MN 98, etc. One single set of aggregates from childbirth from a womb can manifest in billions of different ways during one lifetime.

When one regards it as ‘mine’ is called "upadana". "Desire-and-lust for them" is called "tanha". Nanoslav Nanamoli sounds confused. "Jati" is defined as the coming-forth (jati) of beings (sattanam) within a category of beings" (sattanikāye). SN 23.2 & SN 5.10 unambiguously say "a being" is merely a view or verbal convention, which MN 98 affirms. The suttas are very clear but Nanoslav Nanamoli appears fondling & clutching at words, which appears why his books are loaded with convoluted footnotes attempting to further explain his primary convoluted ramblings.
nmjojola wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:34 pm Just to clarify I'm looking for someone in Dhammayut who is already familiar, I dont care to introduce anyone to it, but either way yes I understand the likelihood of finding such isn't great.
Most Western bhikkhus are Maha Nikaya.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi nmjojola,
nmjojola wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:34 pm Just to clarify I'm looking for someone in Dhammayut who is already familiar, I dont care to introduce anyone to it, but either way yes I understand the likelihood of finding such isn't great.
Are you looking for someone to ordain with, visit, study with, or something else? It might help someone to point out something useful if they knew your motivation.

My impression, is that the main readers of these works are Western converts. Obviously, there have been some Asian monks (particularly in Sri Lanka) who have read them, such as Ven. Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda. He was clearly not Dhammayut, and by his own definition not a Nanavirist, but he does comment on Nanavira's writings in places. Ven Thanissaro, of course, is Dhammayut and I would guess is aware of the writings, but not overly sympathetic to them. But maybe some of his students are...

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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by BlackBird »

gavesako wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:22 pm
nmjojola wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:45 pm
pitakele wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:25 am
The op's question was re Dhammayut temples in Thailand familiar with that stream of Buddhist thought.
Precisely. Or at least a monk who is, doesn't have to be that the/a temple itself is 'dedicated' to it per say. Just the name of a monk whom I can look into if anyone knows of one and I can take it from there. Even if they aren't currently living in Thailand that would be okay I suppose so long as they are Dhammayut.
It's very unlikely that you will find a Thai Dhammayut monk who has any interest in reading Sartre and Heidegger as a prerequisite to Dhamma practice.
I get that this was a jest, Bhante. But for the record I have read neither Sartre nor Heidegger (at least not successfully, think I lasted a whole page) and I'm fairly settled on the existential approach.

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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by The2nd »

nmjojola wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:34 pm
Just to clarify I'm looking for someone in Dhammayut who is already familiar, I dont care to introduce anyone to it, but either way yes I understand the likelihood of finding such isn't great.
Go to any place which has good vinaya, and that allows you to communicate with the monks, whose approaches interest you, through email.
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by The2nd »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:57 pm
nmjojola wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:45 pm Precisely. Or at least a monk who is, doesn't have to be that the/a temple itself is 'dedicated' to it per say. Just the name of a monk whom I can look into if anyone knows of one and I can take it from there. Even if they aren't currently living in Thailand that would be okay I suppose so long as they are Dhammayut.
Nanavira & Nanoslav Nanamoli appearred to be searching thru the suttas rather than completely realized the Dhamma. Nanavira's incomplete attempt to understand Dependent Origination was followed by Nanoslav Nanamoli's incomplete attempt. Its unlikely any learned Thai monk would follow the teachings of these Western wanderers. For example, imagine attempting to translate Nanoslav Nanamoli's convoluted words about Pali from Italian, to English, to Thai. What a nightmare. This said, i am only aware of Maha Nikaya monks (such as Buddhadasa, Ajahn Chah & Payutto) who have taught here & now dependent origination. It seems at least the Dhammayut monks such as Ajahn Mun & Maha Boowa taught the Three Lifetimes. Somdet Phra Sangharaja Chao Krommaluang Vajirañāṇasaṃvara did at least on one occasion teach heaven & hell where within the mind rather than are "ancient geography".

For example, Nanoslav Nanamoli wrote:
Thus, although we can agree that birth is some sort of a ‘beginning’, so to speak, a “manifestation of the aggregates,” what obliges us to think that that beginning has ended there? The fact that one keeps accepting and using the five-aggregates, the fact that one is constantly involved with the world of one’s senses, doesn’t that mean that one’s manifestation of aggregates is still present? And would one be able to desire various things in the world, if those things were not manifested? If one were able to relinquish any attachment for his own body, would one be bothered when that body falls apart and dies? It is because one affirms that manifestation of the five-aggregates, through desire-and-lust for them, that the manifestation exists, it comes-into-being—with being, birth is (bhavapaccayā jāti). When one regards it as ‘mine’, one ages, falls sick and dies (and also experiences any other misery possible in this life)—with birth, ageing-and-death (jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ). If there is no being whatsoever, would manifestation be able to manifest itself? And if nothing manifested, would one be able to appropriate it? And if there is nothing which belongs to one, would one suffer on account of those things breaking up and disappearing? No, because one has escaped.
It appears above Nanoslav Nanamoli has misunderstood the meaning of the Pali words "manifestation of the aggregates" ("khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo"). His statement: "because one affirms that manifestation of the five-aggregates, through desire-and-lust for them, that the manifestation exists" appears contrary to the suttas & sounds like solipsism. Nanoslav Nanamoli appears to regard the aggregates as something "static" that are affirmed into existence via solipsism.

In reality, the term "khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo" refers to how the aggregates, for puthujjana, both internally ('oneself') & externally (others), always change their composition and a different category (nikaya) of "a being" (satta) is imputed upon each different manifestation. For example, studious aggregates are called "a student"; angry aggregates are called "a demon"; loving aggregates are called "a brahma being"; medical aggregates are called "a doctor"; aggregates that birth & breast feed children are called "a mother", etc, as explained on MN 86, MN 98, etc. One single set of aggregates from childbirth from a womb can manifest in billions of different ways during one lifetime.

When one regards it as ‘mine’ is called "upadana". "Desire-and-lust for them" is called "tanha". Nanoslav Nanamoli sounds confused. "Jati" is defined as the coming-forth (jati) of beings (sattanam) within a category of beings" (sattanikāye). SN 23.2 & SN 5.10 unambiguously say "a being" is merely a view or verbal convention, which MN 98 affirms. The suttas are very clear but Nanoslav Nanamoli appears fondling & clutching at words, which appears why his books are loaded with convoluted footnotes attempting to further explain his primary convoluted ramblings.
nmjojola wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:34 pm Just to clarify I'm looking for someone in Dhammayut who is already familiar, I dont care to introduce anyone to it, but either way yes I understand the likelihood of finding such isn't great.
Most Western bhikkhus are Maha Nikaya.
It appears that you are unsure about what Ven.Nyanamoli etc means, yet seems you are quite interested in the works of such monks. Why not direct your questions/concerns to them?

That would be an interesting read.
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