Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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DooDoot
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by DooDoot »

The2nd wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:01 am It appears that you are unsure about what Ven.Nyanamoli etc means...
No. It appears you are unsure. Ven.Nyanamoli appears confused, with statements such as: "manifestation ...manifest itself". The suttas never say this. In one UToob video, Ven.Nyanamoli could not even explain was mindfulness was.
The2nd wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:01 amyet seems you are quite interested in the works of such monks.
I am not interested at all. I was simply pointing out their errors and explaining why learned Thai monks would not be interested in following the teachings of those Westerners fondling with suttas & ignoring the Noble Sangha. Have you ever taken the 5 precepts?
The2nd wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:01 amWhy not direct your questions/concerns to them? That would be an interesting read.
No. Since you personally were unable to understand what i wrote, how could they? Ven.Nyanamoli appears to be an internet fad. I already mentioned he could not even explain mindfulness properly.

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:24 am, edited 8 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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nmjojola
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by nmjojola »

The2nd wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:54 am Go to any place which has good vinaya....
This is solid advice, thanks!
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DooDoot
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by DooDoot »

nmjojola wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:28 am This is solid advice, thanks!
The right advice is Noble Sangha rather than Sīlabbata-Parāmāsa Sangha. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
nmjojola
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by nmjojola »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:58 am Hi nmjojola,
nmjojola wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:34 pm Just to clarify I'm looking for someone in Dhammayut who is already familiar, I dont care to introduce anyone to it, but either way yes I understand the likelihood of finding such isn't great.
Are you looking for someone to ordain with, visit, study with, or something else? It might help someone to point out something useful if they knew your motivation.

My impression, is that the main readers of these works are Western converts. Obviously, there have been some Asian monks (particularly in Sri Lanka) who have read them, such as Ven. Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda. He was clearly not Dhammayut, and by his own definition not a Nanavirist, but he does comment on Nanavira's writings in places. Ven Thanissaro, of course, is Dhammayut and I would guess is aware of the writings, but not overly sympathetic to them. But maybe some of his students are...

:heart:
Mike
I am taking higher ordination in the United States in the Dhammayut lineage, after that I should do a stint Thailand, although it seems I may not necessarily "have to", I should nonetheless. However it seems the places and teachers my abbott are familiar with are dead or dying out, either figuratively or literally, so it seems there may be room for my input on where I would go since he's not liking what he's hearing about his primary choice from my predecessor reporting back on monthly updates who was sent last year (the place is now rich, deforested, lax vinaya, founding monk/teacher practically retired and not teaching anymore, i.e. "not what it used to be when he was a young monk himself" kinda thing, etc..).
So for the first time I'm researching Dhammayut temples in Thailand myself, and obviously from this post one can tell I share in the ken of what seems to be called the "Phenomenological/Existential" approach.

--Side Note: I actually came across Nanavira after I already personally felt established on the Path, and it was a heck of a thing too because when I read the Notes I was swept away by the constantly repeating vindication of my own experience word after word, sentence after sentence, paragraph after paragraph, I was in awe with how talented he was in being able to articulate so precisely these things with such nuance that I had personally grasped only generally, for me it was perfectly natural to just keep nodding my head page after page "this guy is nailing it right on the head", it was like finding out about a long-lost older brother that I never knew I had.
I don't get that much out of Fundamental Structure and I never cared much for existential philosophy so I tended to look over those parts in the footnotes where he quotes those philosophers because it wasn't necessary for me as their attitude was already my attitude to life in general (and thus dhamma as well) from the very beginning, I was fortunate enough to already have the right relationship with the suttas in other words, I didn't need the parts of his writing intended (not to preach those doctrines but) to orientate the attitude of the reader. It simply vindicated my own experience as I already had it and it served to clarify and shine some light on some things further since my knowledge of Pali is quite less than someone like him who was a bhikkhu for over 15 years, and even to this day the work simply serves as a supplementary workbook, by no means a necessity, and actually my favorite monk isn't even Nanavira, it's Nanavimala who walked all over Sri Lanka.
--

However due to the contention and controversy surrounding him I have to keep it all to myself pretty much even at the monastery where I now live, in fact it was one of the head monks who first handed me The Notes but under the explicit pretext "Hey check out this guy, he was insane, here's an example of how a good monk doesn't turn out, don't end up going crazy like this", so, yeah lol I actually feel bad for people who overlook it so easily but nonetheless I am still thankful for being here and don't take the difference of position personally.

So of course I would be most comfortable at a place where the same general view of the dhamma is shared, but its not a necessity, and from what I just said above I think one could tell I'm already quite used to inwardly being "the oddball out" when it comes to atittude towards teaching and tradition.

However thanks to a post in this thread by user The2nd I realize I am probably taking the wrong approach here in that I should just try to find a place with a good reputation in holding to the Vinaya, which may not be that much easier (the "Forest Tradition" seems to be succumbing to the modern times in recent decades) but I'm sure it's got to be at least somewhat easier.

Thanks everyone
:anjali:
The2nd
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by The2nd »

nmjojola wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:29 am
mikenz66 wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:58 am Hi nmjojola,
nmjojola wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:34 pm Just to clarify I'm looking for someone in Dhammayut who is already familiar, I dont care to introduce anyone to it, but either way yes I understand the likelihood of finding such isn't great.
Are you looking for someone to ordain with, visit, study with, or something else? It might help someone to point out something useful if they knew your motivation.

My impression, is that the main readers of these works are Western converts. Obviously, there have been some Asian monks (particularly in Sri Lanka) who have read them, such as Ven. Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda. He was clearly not Dhammayut, and by his own definition not a Nanavirist, but he does comment on Nanavira's writings in places. Ven Thanissaro, of course, is Dhammayut and I would guess is aware of the writings, but not overly sympathetic to them. But maybe some of his students are...

:heart:
Mike
I am taking higher ordination in the United States in the Dhammayut lineage, after that I should do a stint Thailand, although it seems I may not necessarily "have to", I should nonetheless. However it seems the places and teachers my abbott are familiar with are dead or dying out, either figuratively or literally, so it seems there may be room for my input on where I would go since he's not liking what he's hearing about his primary choice from my predecessor reporting back on monthly updates who was sent last year (the place is now rich, deforested, lax vinaya, founding monk/teacher practically retired and not teaching anymore, i.e. "not what it used to be when he was a young monk himself" kinda thing, etc..).
So for the first time I'm researching Dhammayut temples in Thailand myself, and obviously from this post one can tell I share in the ken of what seems to be called the "Phenomenological/Existential" approach.

--Side Note: I actually came across Nanavira after I already personally felt established on the Path, and it was a heck of a thing too because when I read the Notes I was swept away by the constantly repeating vindication of my own experience word after word, sentence after sentence, paragraph after paragraph, I was in awe with how talented he was in being able to articulate so precisely these things with such nuance that I had personally grasped only generally, for me it was perfectly natural to just keep nodding my head page after page "this guy is nailing it right on the head", it was like finding out about a long-lost older brother that I never knew I had.
I don't get that much out of Fundamental Structure and I never cared much for existential philosophy so I tended to look over those parts in the footnotes where he quotes those philosophers because it wasn't necessary for me as their attitude was already my attitude to life in general (and thus dhamma as well) from the very beginning, I was fortunate enough to already have the right relationship with the suttas in other words, I didn't need the parts of his writing intended (not to preach those doctrines but) to orientate the attitude of the reader. It simply vindicated my own experience as I already had it and it served to clarify and shine some light on some things further since my knowledge of Pali is quite less than someone like him who was a bhikkhu for over 15 years, and even to this day the work simply serves as a supplementary workbook, by no means a necessity, and actually my favorite monk isn't even Nanavira, it's Nanavimala who walked all over Sri Lanka.
--

However due to the contention and controversy surrounding him I have to keep it all to myself pretty much even at the monastery where I now live, in fact it was one of the head monks who first handed me The Notes but under the explicit pretext "Hey check out this guy, he was insane, here's an example of how a good monk doesn't turn out, don't end up going crazy like this", so, yeah lol I actually feel bad for people who overlook it so easily but nonetheless I am still thankful for being here and don't take the difference of position personally.

So of course I would be most comfortable at a place where the same general view of the dhamma is shared, but its not a necessity, and from what I just said above I think one could tell I'm already quite used to inwardly being "the oddball out" when it comes to atittude towards teaching and tradition.

However thanks to a post in this thread by user The2nd I realize I am probably taking the wrong approach here in that I should just try to find a place with a good reputation in holding to the Vinaya, which may not be that much easier (the "Forest Tradition" seems to be succumbing to the modern times in recent decades) but I'm sure it's got to be at least somewhat easier.

Thanks everyone
:anjali:
As I say, all you need is a good enough environment to practice, and if you are taking upasampada then obviously you need to be in a place where you can learn how to live as a monk.

All the best.
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SDC
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by SDC »

The2nd wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:49 am As I say, all you need is a good enough environment to practice, and if you are taking upasampada then obviously you need to be in a place where you can learn how to live as a monk.

All the best.
This post seems like excellent advice, and is coincidentally what Ajahn Nyanamoli has advised in several talks.
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by The2nd »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:22 am
The2nd wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:01 am It appears that you are unsure about what Ven.Nyanamoli etc means...
No. It appears you are unsure. Ven.Nyanamoli appears confused, with statements such as: "manifestation ...manifest itself". The suttas never say this. In one UToob video, Ven.Nyanamoli could not even explain was mindfulness was.
The2nd wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:01 amyet seems you are quite interested in the works of such monks.
I am not interested at all. I was simply pointing out their errors and explaining why learned Thai monks would not be interested in following the teachings of those Westerners fondling with suttas & ignoring the Noble Sangha. Have you ever taken the 5 precepts?
The2nd wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:01 amWhy not direct your questions/concerns to them? That would be an interesting read.
No. Since you personally were unable to understand what i wrote, how could they? Ven.Nyanamoli appears to be an internet fad. I already mentioned he could not even explain mindfulness properly.

:smile:
You say "It appears you are unsure. Ven.Nyanamoli appears confused,..", which means that you dont really know ,but it just appears to you, to be the case. Therefore, you are in doubt.

Just because it appears to you that i dont understand you, doesnt mean that others will also not understand you. Also, i am not Ven.Nyanamoli, so why judge him through me?

You say you are not interested but have particular questions/concerns in regard to Ven.Nm's teachings, so why not just ask him directly, instead of just critiquing him here with others who are also not Ven.Nm?

Or are you just interested in enjoying , trying to pointing out faults in regard to him, from your safe space?

Honestly, you bring up some good points, but you are bringing them up with people who are not Ven.Nyanamoli or his representatives. Maybe you could set up an online meeting etc with him, and maybe record the discussion, so that we may all benefit from listening?

(* I thought I posted this reply earlier, but it didnt seem to appear? If a second one appears....sorry, im not quite familiar with this forums particulars)
nmjojola
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by nmjojola »

The2nd wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:49 am As I say, all you need is a good enough environment to practice...
Roger that, my current environment is quite accommodating enough, not many duties, not asked to do anything to break virtue, ample time for mediation, however after higher ordination, which, as you say...
The2nd wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:49 am if you are taking upasampada then obviously you need to be in a place where you can learn how to live as a monk.
This is precisely why I am not dodging the Thailand stint even though I technically could, it's only there where the essential tasks can be trained into you in a "bootcamp" like manner such as sewing robes, also the opportunity for Thudong training. I was just concerned about ending up in an un-ideal place in a foreign country where language and cultural barriers could make it difficult for me to rectify if it was to happen, because there are a lot of places that are mostly just what I can only call "cultural centers for priestly activities". But I have time, upasampada will be sometime before the 2021 vassa, I'm sure if I focus my criteria on, as you put, "good vinaya", and express this with the abbott here in the U.S. as being my sole concern I'm sure everything will work out.

As the canon puts it, to paraphrase, the Vinaya is what binds the leafs/petals together and holds them in place from blowing about - indeed you are right Vinaya is all I need to go by, the only criterion necessary.
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by The2nd »

nmjojola wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:26 pm
The2nd wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:49 am As I say, all you need is a good enough environment to practice...
Roger that, my current environment is quite accommodating enough, not many duties, not asked to do anything to break virtue, ample time for mediation, however after higher ordination, which, as you say...
The2nd wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:49 am if you are taking upasampada then obviously you need to be in a place where you can learn how to live as a monk.
This is precisely why I am not dodging the Thailand stint even though I technically could, it's only there where the essential tasks can be trained into you in a "bootcamp" like manner such as sewing robes, also the opportunity for Thudong training. I was just concerned about ending up in an un-ideal place in a foreign country where language and cultural barriers could make it difficult for me to rectify if it was to happen, because there are a lot of places that are mostly just what I can only call "cultural centers for priestly activities". But I have time, upasampada will be sometime before the 2021 vassa, I'm sure if I focus my criteria on, as you put, "good vinaya", and express this with the abbott here in the U.S. as being my sole concern I'm sure everything will work out.

As the canon puts it, to paraphrase, the Vinaya is what binds the leafs/petals together and holds them in place from blowing about - indeed you are right Vinaya is all I need to go by, the only criterion necessary.
There is also other places in Europe that you could go, for example Samanadipa hermitage in Slovenia. I dont think they do upasamapadas yet....?
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by DooDoot »

The2nd wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:18 pm You say "It appears...
Just being polite.
The2nd wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:18 pmso why not just ask him directly, instead of just critiquing him here with others who are also not Ven.Nm?
He is welcome to come here.
The2nd wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:18 pm Honestly, you bring up some good points
All of my points are generally good; not merely some. :smile:

The Pali says of the aggregates in genitive (possessive) case: "their manifestation" (khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo; lit: "the khandhas' manifestation"). The Pali does not say the manifestation of the manifestation; which i imagine would be "pātubhāvāya pātubhāvo".

Nyanamoli is stuck in "jati" as self-view, similar to Nanavira beforehand or Buddhadasa beforehand. But, while close, "jati" appears to mean "a category/group of identity of beings" ("sattanikāye"), per its literal meaning. Instead of papanca from Pali, Nyanamoli could simply look up Wikipedia:
Jāti (in Devanagari: जाति, Bengali: জাতি, Telugu: జాతి, Kannada: ಜಾತಿ, Malayalam: ജാതി, Tamil: சாதி, literally "birth") is a group of clans, tribes, communities, and sub-communities, and religions in India. Each Jāti typically has an association with a traditional job function or tribe. Religious beliefs (e.g. Sri Vaishnavism or Smarthism or Veer Shaivism) or linguistic groupings may define some Jātis. A person's surname typically reflects a community (Jāti) association: thus Gandhi = perfume seller, Dhobi = washerman, Srivastava = military scribe, etc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%81ti
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by The2nd »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:28 am
The2nd wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:18 pm You say "It appears...
Just being polite.
The2nd wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:18 pmso why not just ask him directly, instead of just critiquing him here with others who are also not Ven.Nm?
He is welcome to come here.
The2nd wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:18 pm Honestly, you bring up some good points
All of my points are generally good; not merely some. :smile:

The Pali says of the aggregates in genitive (possessive) case: "their manifestation" (khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo). The Pali does not say the manifestation of the manifestation; which i imagine would be "pātubhāvānaṃ pātubhāvo".
Yes, I am sure Ven.Nyanamoli is welcome to partake in this forum, but that still doesnt change the fact that you like to critique his views here, without him being present here.

The fact that you do not pose your concerns about Ven.Nm's teachings, directly to him, appears to reveal that you are merely indulging your ill-will towards him. It appears, in other words, that you dont actually care if he is right or whether you have simply misunderstood something he has said, because you have already decided that he is wrong, and that joy that you find in your irrational fault-finding mind of ill-will, is a delusional sense of safety that you need in order to feel like you are ok.
The2nd
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by The2nd »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:28 am
Nyanamoli is stuck in "jati" as self-view, similar to Nanavira beforehand or Buddhadasa beforehand. But, while close, "jati" appears to mean "a category/group of identity of beings" ("sattanikāye"), per its literal meaning. Instead of papanca from Pali, Nyanamoli could simply look up Wikipedia:
Jāti (in Devanagari: जाति, Bengali: জাতি, Telugu: జాతి, Kannada: ಜಾತಿ, Malayalam: ജാതി, Tamil: சாதி, literally "birth") is a group of clans, tribes, communities, and sub-communities, and religions in India. Each Jāti typically has an association with a traditional job function or tribe. Religious beliefs (e.g. Sri Vaishnavism or Smarthism or Veer Shaivism) or linguistic groupings may define some Jātis. A person's surname typically reflects a community (Jāti) association: thus Gandhi = perfume seller, Dhobi = washerman, Srivastava = military scribe, etc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%81ti
Why not tell him directly?
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DooDoot
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by DooDoot »

The2nd wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:57 am ...critique his views here, without him being present here.
Irrelevant to anything. He wrote his views in a book and that is sufficient.
The2nd wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:57 amThe fact that you do not pose your concerns about Ven.Nm's teachings, directly to him, appears to reveal that you are merely indulging your ill-will towards him.
Not at all. The above sounds quite illogical. There are many critiques on this forum and most do not represent ill-will.
The2nd wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:57 amIt appears, in other words, that you dont actually care if he is right or whether you have simply misunderstood something he has said...
I have not misunderstood his gobbledygook.
The2nd wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:00 amWhy not tell him directly?
U can tell him.

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by mikenz66 »

nmjojola wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:29 am I am taking higher ordination in the United States in the Dhammayut lineage, after that I should do a stint Thailand, although it seems I may not necessarily "have to", I should nonetheless. ...
Thanks for explaining your plans. Best wishes for your ordination!

Ven Dhammanando may have some useful advice, since he's been ordained in both Thai Nikayas. You might search through his posts. E.g.
google: Dhammayut dhammanando site:dhammawheel.com


:heart:
Mike
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Re: Dhammayut Thai Temples Friendly to Phenomenonlogical Approach?

Post by nmjojola »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:37 am :focus:
This is Ironic.
Last edited by nmjojola on Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:55 am, edited 5 times in total.
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