Buddhist practice as a monastic in another religion?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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rightviewftw
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Re: Buddhist practice as a monastic in another religion?

Post by rightviewftw »

Either way i think if one could go to those greek mountains where the orthodox christians don't allow women to enter, that might work but i would recommend doing your own thing and not socializing with the christians, basicaly see if they let you starve to death or not.

In general not seeing women and as little of men as possible will make the training a lot easier. It is like being in a war but not being on the front lines, not engaging in combat, more like a general or a strategist. It minimizes the chance of injury in combat and defeat.

Therefore id say if you have a place in mind which might work for you in a way that benefits your concentration and good qualities, go for it but do not underestimate the drawbacks and the effects of small transgressions & compromises. It isn't easy to evaluate these situations but it might be easy if alternatives suck , if one is choosing a temporary place or if the place is near ideal.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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Kusala
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Re: Buddhist practice as a monastic in another religion?

Post by Kusala »

Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:55 pm
rightviewftw wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:04 pm No it's not ok to lie in order to be given food. People give according to their faith. If one not being a Buddhist, not planning to train according to Buddhist manuals, if ordained as a Buddhist to get food, maintained appearance and ate almsfood given in good faith, then that one is a thief imo.

I do understand your predicament and why you would consider it but keep in mind that not all buddhist monasteries and communities are a fit for one who wants to train. How much less so a non-buddhist community.
Nah, no one has the intention of lying, like I said in my post. I'm merely theory-crafting, trying to figure out how one would be able to seek out a secluded dwelling and livelihood, proper for training and practice, in the conditions that I outined. Again, no lying, no false vows, no anything like that, please don't misunderstand. Just being a seeker among other seekers. At the end of the day, both Christians and Buddhists and whatever other faith-followers are out there are seeking one and the same thing, i.e. purity, the ultimate, whatever you want to call it. The difference is in the methods, techniques, beliefs or lack thereof, and of course the end results, or lack thereof. Rest assured, my intentions are absolutely pure--no lying is intended, just trying to figure out how to adapt and live the holy life in line with the Buddhist dhamma when there is absolute no active sangha nearby, and when going to the other side of the globe has too much drawbacks and negatives. We're all seekers at the end of the day.

You're absolutely right that not all Buddhist monasteries are fit for one who wishes to train, much less non-Buddhist monasteries, thank you for reminding me that; but nonetheless, there are probably some strict religious seekers and orders out there that one can hang out with while meditating, no?
befriend wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:47 pmis it possible for you to move near a Buddhist monastery? And help the monks as a lay man? And learn from them?
Note that I'm merely theory-crafting with this topic, trying to consider the possibilities. No, it's not possible for me to move near a Buddhist monastery, there are no such nearby--plus there'd be many drawbacks and negative sides to doing any of that, even if possible. Plus, as the post above this one reminded me--not all Buddhist monasteries or teachers practice (in line with the Dhamma), so there's absolutely no guarantee in anything. About learning from someone... I've already learned the basics, there's no more to learn I think, just practicing (meditating) is needed; have no intention to become a scholar or study texts in detail.

Again, this is merely theory-crafting! Also, to all, by 'monk' in this topic I'm not referring to the type of monk that goes around blessing people and places. I'm talking about the type of monk that keeps secluded to himself, actually practicing.
Abrahamic religions are diametrically opposed to Buddhism. All this "new age" stuff have nothing to do with the Buddha Sasana. You don't want to learn this the hard way like this man @ 7:10 - 8:12...


"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Buddhist practice as a monastic in another religion?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:06 pm Opinions will be greatly appreciated.
Have you thought of being a hermit? There's quite a tradition of hermits in some countries. It's a lonely life though, and difficult with food and healthcare and old age.

The only other alternative I could think of is to properly be an 8-precept layperson full-time, in your daily life.
Work part-time in a job where you can practise the dhamma all the time, and live simply and as cheaply as possible, so you have a lot of time off to practise.
There have been many enlightened laypeople.
Mr. Seek
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Re: Buddhist practice as a monastic in another religion?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Thank you for all the input everyone! And, just to share--after considering all this some more, the following negatives can't help but stand out very clearly:

Living in such a monastic group would mean you'd have to follow their daily schedule and regime, which means you'll have to eat in accordance to their habits and practices. So, realistically speaking no one would let you be a one-sessioner, which is disappointing because that kind of stuff is important for good meditation, at least that's what I think. Also, there's the sacrificial wine (no thank you) and bread, all sorts of other rituals and stuff that just doesn't make sense for someone who knows the dhamma (maybe they'd make sense to someone who's into Mahayana or Tibetan Buddhism, but I doubt anyone serious in EBT would be interested in them). Then there's also the group chanting and prayer--there is probably such. Then, and worst of all, there's always the possibility that the monastic group in question prefers having its members work all day long instead of meditating/praying alone. This last thing would probably make the whole ordeal too much of a problem rather than help.

I do see the very clear positives though--somewhat ideal environment for sense restraint and mindfulness, contentness, like-minded peers, etc.

Ah, how in the world do you seriously practice the Buddha dhamma when there is no four-fold assembly nearby... I have to research this topic more and also look into alternatives such as being a wanderer or a part-time worker.

Anyone else ever came to face such questions?
Snp 5.11—"Having nothing, free of clinging: That is the island, there is no other."
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Dhammanando
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Re: Buddhist practice as a monastic in another religion?

Post by Dhammanando »

Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:06 pmyou've come to the firm conclusion that moving to the other side of the globe just to meditate has its dangers, uncertainties, and drawbacks.
Going to the other side of town to buy some frozen peas also has its dangers, uncertainties, and drawbacks.
Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:06 pmSo, what do you think?
I think the "firm conclusion" is so trivially true that it deserves no serious place in one's planning for the future.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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StrivingforMonkhood
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Re: Buddhist practice as a monastic in another religion?

Post by StrivingforMonkhood »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:31 am
Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:06 pm Opinions will be greatly appreciated.
Have you thought of being a hermit? There's quite a tradition of hermits in some countries. It's a lonely life though, and difficult with food and healthcare and old age.

The only other alternative I could think of is to properly be an 8-precept layperson full-time, in your daily life.
Work part-time in a job where you can practise the dhamma all the time, and live simply and as cheaply as possible, so you have a lot of time off to practise.
There have been many enlightened laypeople.
I conversed with a man who is a hermit in the desert Southwest of the US. He considers himself more or less a monk, but not ordained. If I remember well, he wears religious-type clothing like a yogi/Buddhist. He lives faithful to the Dhamma. He appears quite enlightened, very much in tune with Buddhist teachings. He wished me enlightenment, and I did to him as well. He inspired me.

Yes, it's possible to go live in the forest without being a properly ordained monk. You can achieve great enlightenment. Proper monkhood is not always possible for some people because of personality, life circumstances, health issues, etc.

I recommend this lifestyle for those who seek it and need it. It is something I am considering for myself. I need to find a remote location and make sure I can work with internet online, however (save up money).

Peace and enlightenment.
May we all fulfill our deepest wish for happiness

We are already Buddha
Mr. Seek
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Re: Buddhist practice as a monastic in another religion?

Post by Mr. Seek »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:47 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:06 pm Opinions will be greatly appreciated.
Lots of original/historical Christian monasticism & Sufi mysticism appeared to be Buddhism in disguise. The bottom line is you will still have to find a Christian monastery that accommodates mysticism rather than superstition. Once this can be done then in communication one simply uses the terms "Holy Spirit" for "Pure Consciousness" or "Breath Consciousness" and "Heavens" for "Jhanas", etc. It is not rocket science. You can only be a Buddhist in disguise if you understand the New Testament and are able to interpret its terminology in terms of Buddhism. Then you won't engage in false speech.
Honestly the more I research this type of thought, the more I'm convinced that real, mystical Christian monasticism is basically a twisted form of Tibetan Buddhist guru yoga. I keep reading and reading and the similarities are just so striking. They use Greek words that have similarities to Pali meanings, they practice 24/7 mindfulness, they do empowerments to each other, do jhana, and most striking of all, I discovered they actually have not-self, apophatic teachings in them. How weird is that!? I read passages, texts from saints and whatnot, watched videos of monks--they are literally saying give up the All, including the bliss from jhana, and seek the unmanifest; that the concept of "I" is born of Satan; that you have to follow the words of your teacher, i.e. guru; that you shouldn't trust in whatever visions pop up, that you shouldn't enjoy any bliss that comes from constant prayer; that constant prayer ought to be done only under the guidance of a teacher, because it can prove dangerous and too powerful; that monks may get too haughty and think themselves to be saints after constant prayer and the attaining of psychic powers. What in the world? I guess Christianity wasn't just moral dogma, they just keep all of the good stuff hidden. For example, read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm and tell me that's not hinting at some elite, apophatic Buddhist meditation technique. They also have mantras like the Jesus Prayer which they try to repeat inwardly all the time, much like Ajahn Maha Boowa does with 'buddho'. They have silent prayers, etc., and all sorts of other weird stuff.

I was doubtful at first. Read some opinions on the matter, whether there is a connection with the East, e.g. between Buddhism and Christianity. Listened to Thích Nhất Hạnh on the matter and was totally convinced, original Christian monasticism must be some form of super secretive mysticism, where there is most definitely a high degree of meditation involved, one with connections to the Eastern mysteries. They just keep it all hidden! On the outside it looks as if it's total moral dogma and view clinging, but who knows, maybe there are really enlightened Christian monks out there somewhere.

Very interesting stuff. I learned a lot in the last couple of days by researching this line of thought, thank you.

As for all other comments, particularly the negative ones, and the ones that suggest alternatives--thank you! Your input is greatly appreciated. I'll definitely consider all the options and not make any rash, stupid choices. I'm just theory-crafting and trying to figure out what are the choices for someone who is interested in serious practice. Hope you don't mind me expressing this very weird idea that I came up with by creating this topic, sorry if it disturbs anyone!
Snp 5.11—"Having nothing, free of clinging: That is the island, there is no other."
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DooDoot
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Re: Buddhist practice as a monastic in another religion?

Post by DooDoot »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:52 am Honestly the more I research this ...
This phenomena shows how great the Buddha was; and why the suttas say there can only be one Sammasambuddha in a world system.

:bow:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Kusala
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Re: Buddhist practice as a monastic in another religion?

Post by Kusala »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:52 am
DooDoot wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:47 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:06 pm Opinions will be greatly appreciated.
Lots of original/historical Christian monasticism & Sufi mysticism appeared to be Buddhism in disguise. The bottom line is you will still have to find a Christian monastery that accommodates mysticism rather than superstition. Once this can be done then in communication one simply uses the terms "Holy Spirit" for "Pure Consciousness" or "Breath Consciousness" and "Heavens" for "Jhanas", etc. It is not rocket science. You can only be a Buddhist in disguise if you understand the New Testament and are able to interpret its terminology in terms of Buddhism. Then you won't engage in false speech.
Honestly the more I research this type of thought, the more I'm convinced that real, mystical Christian monasticism is basically a twisted form of Tibetan Buddhist guru yoga. I keep reading and reading and the similarities are just so striking. They use Greek words that have similarities to Pali meanings, they practice 24/7 mindfulness, they do empowerments to each other, do jhana, and most striking of all, I discovered they actually have not-self, apophatic teachings in them. How weird is that!? I read passages, texts from saints and whatnot, watched videos of monks--they are literally saying give up the All, including the bliss from jhana, and seek the unmanifest; that the concept of "I" is born of Satan; that you have to follow the words of your teacher, i.e. guru; that you shouldn't trust in whatever visions pop up, that you shouldn't enjoy any bliss that comes from constant prayer; that constant prayer ought to be done only under the guidance of a teacher, because it can prove dangerous and too powerful; that monks may get too haughty and think themselves to be saints after constant prayer and the attaining of psychic powers. What in the world? I guess Christianity wasn't just moral dogma, they just keep all of the good stuff hidden. For example, read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm and tell me that's not hinting at some elite, apophatic Buddhist meditation technique. They also have mantras like the Jesus Prayer which they try to repeat inwardly all the time, much like Ajahn Maha Boowa does with 'buddho'. They have silent prayers, etc., and all sorts of other weird stuff.

I was doubtful at first. Read some opinions on the matter, whether there is a connection with the East, e.g. between Buddhism and Christianity. Listened to Thích Nhất Hạnh on the matter and was totally convinced, original Christian monasticism must be some form of super secretive mysticism, where there is most definitely a high degree of meditation involved, one with connections to the Eastern mysteries. They just keep it all hidden! On the outside it looks as if it's total moral dogma and view clinging, but who knows, maybe there are really enlightened Christian monks out there somewhere.

Very interesting stuff. I learned a lot in the last couple of days by researching this line of thought, thank you.


As for all other comments, particularly the negative ones, and the ones that suggest alternatives--thank you! Your input is greatly appreciated. I'll definitely consider all the options and not make any rash, stupid choices. I'm just theory-crafting and trying to figure out what are the choices for someone who is interested in serious practice. Hope you don't mind me expressing this very weird idea that I came up with by creating this topic, sorry if it disturbs anyone!
Are you familiar with Barlaam and Josaphat?


"The story of Barlaam and Josaphat or Joasaph is a Christianized and later version of the story of Siddhartha Gautama, who became the Buddha.[6] In the Middle Ages the two were treated as Christian saints, being entered in the Greek Orthodox calendar on 26 August,[4] and in the Roman Martyrology in the Western Church as "Barlaam and Josaphat" on the date of 27 November.[5] In the Slavic tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church, these two are commemorated on 19 November (corresponding to 2 December on the Gregorian calendar).[7][8]"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlaam_and_Josaphat
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
SteRo
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Re: Buddhist practice as a monastic in another religion?

Post by SteRo »

Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:06 pm Opinions will be greatly appreciated. It's a complicated topic, but I'll try to be as short and as clear as possible.

...
Yeah, what are your thoughts? Crazy idea, I know, but we live in crazy times. Have to adapt and survive...

Looking forward to hearing your comments! Sorry if any of this sounds too weird lol.
One of the weirdest ideas I came across in this forum so far. To me it seems that EITHER your wish to escape from ordinary life in the easiest way is bigger than faith in dhamma OR your knowledge of dhamma just isn't developed enough to know that the idea would necessarily entail failure.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
Mr. Seek
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Re: Buddhist practice as a monastic in another religion?

Post by Mr. Seek »

SteRo wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:11 am
Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:06 pm Opinions will be greatly appreciated. It's a complicated topic, but I'll try to be as short and as clear as possible.

...
Yeah, what are your thoughts? Crazy idea, I know, but we live in crazy times. Have to adapt and survive...

Looking forward to hearing your comments! Sorry if any of this sounds too weird lol.
One of the weirdest ideas I came across in this forum so far. To me it seems that EITHER your wish to escape from ordinary life in the easiest way is bigger than faith in dhamma OR your knowledge of dhamma just isn't developed enough to know that the idea would necessarily entail failure.
Hey, just exploring all the options; the positives and negatives. Nothing wrong in brainstorming with some like-minded fellows. Intentions are pure and simple: try to find proper conditions for monastic practice in a fairly unhospitable environment.
Snp 5.11—"Having nothing, free of clinging: That is the island, there is no other."
48vows
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Re: Buddhist practice as a monastic in another religion?

Post by 48vows »

It is recorded that in the old days, monks from different sects could stay together in the same monastery as long as they kept thee same vinaya.
48vows
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Re: Buddhist practice as a monastic in another religion?

Post by 48vows »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:52 am very interesting stuff. I learned a lot in the last couple of days by researching this line of thought
You may be interested in comparing the catholic confession practice to the four opponent powers.
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