Material contribution of monks to society

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
User1249x
Posts: 2749
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by User1249x »

lostitude wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:07 pm
User1249x wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:00 pm
Think of it as a soacial worker, a teacher, a life coach that just gets alms instead of money thay he would buy food with.
Sure, but this is only true for Buddhists. Are you going to give alms to a Muslim ascetic in exchange for his teachings on Allah and Prophet Muhammad?

I think you all are losing track of what I was asking:
What are the activities that monks could engage in, at least in theory, which could be seen as beneficial to Western lay people?
Thanks.
This is very simple. Monks council and inspire people. Do you recognize that drug addiction is a strain on the economy, mental health issues?? Then you have to recognize that overcoming addiction has effective $value. Buddhist monks help eradicate these antisocial tendencies from the society.
lostitude
Posts: 865
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:02 am

Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by lostitude »

User1249x wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:11 pm
What are the activities that monks could engage in, at least in theory, which could be seen as beneficial to Western lay people?

This is very simple. Monks council and inspire people. Do you recognize that drug addiction is a strain on the economy, mental health issues?? Then you have to recognize that overcoming addiction has effective $value. Buddhist monks help eradicate these antisocial tendencies from the society.
Ceisiwr made the same point, to which I replied that only a small minority of people in the Western world actually listen to council and inspiration from Buddhist monks. Which is why I was wondering about other ways of being helpful that would be more suited to Western societies.
Again, would you take council and inspiration from a Muslim ascetic and give him food in exchange for his islamic teachings? I’m not sure why you didn’t react to that part of my previous message.

Thanks!
User1249x
Posts: 2749
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by User1249x »

lostitude wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:27 pm
User1249x wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:11 pm
What are the activities that monks could engage in, at least in theory, which could be seen as beneficial to Western lay people?

This is very simple. Monks council and inspire people. Do you recognize that drug addiction is a strain on the economy, mental health issues?? Then you have to recognize that overcoming addiction has effective $value. Buddhist monks help eradicate these antisocial tendencies from the society.
Ceisiwr made the same point, to which I replied that only a small minority of people in the Western world actually listen to council and inspiration from Buddhist monks. Which is why I was wondering about other ways of being helpful that would be more suited to Western societies.
Again, would you take council and inspiration from a Muslim ascetic and give him food in exchange for his islamic teachings? I’m not sure why you didn’t react to that part of my previous message.

Thanks!
Only a small minority is like millions of people. Buddhism is growing in the West in terms of per capita practitioners so this point you are making is unclear. If you assert that Buddhism is not popular or that it's value can only seen by a small minority, that is not a valid assertion because evidence suggest that it's value is widely recognized in the west wherever people are exposed to it.

Whoever inspires me and says wise things, from him i would take council and if people inspire me with their recluseship or asceticism it is great. If i know a brilliant engineer who is a satanist, i would listen to his engineering but not the satanism.

Buddhist ideas are getting a foothold in the fields of behavioral psychology and whatnot in the West. Any other religions do this?

Keep in mind that Buddhist texts are not yet all translated and were introduced to the west just a bit more than 100 years ago and that very slowly because it takes a lot of time to translate, analyze and put into practice.

With this taken into account we can say that Buddhism is growing as it's value is widely recognized by westerners exposed to it.

In general people value religion, they value culture, they value truth and personal development. The Sangha is the epitome of development, they are the foremost in contentment, discipline & knowledge.

The one's who don't value Buddhism are people fixated in wrong views and those who haven't been exposed to it.
lostitude
Posts: 865
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:02 am

Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by lostitude »

User1249x wrote:Only a small minority is like millions of people.
But if this still amounts to one in a hundred, I don’t really see how any monastic community could easily thrive in such a setting. This is my actual question. I am aware that there are Buddhist monastic communities in the West but I’m pretty sure they would multiply and settle in a lot more different places if they could offer a bit more than just inspiration to those who already have the faith (i.e. mostly the Asian diaspora). So what I’d like to know is whether there is anything specifically preventing monks from doing more than just giving talks and advice to fellow buddhists.
Buddhism is growing in the West in terms of per capita practitioners so this point you are making is unclear.
I think this very statement is unclear. I personally don’t see it growing at all where I hail from. Are you writing this based on specific figures you’ve seen?

Whoever inspires me and says wise things, from him i would take council and if people inspire me with their recluseship or asceticism it is great. If i know a brilliant engineer who is a satanist, i would listen to his engineering but not the satanism.
Right. Concretely, will you give free food to that Muslim on a regular basis? That’s the crux of the matter.
Buddhist ideas are getting a foothold in the fields of behavioral psychology and whatnot in the West. Any other religions do this?
We both know this is a misrepresentation of the truth, as the numerous debates on this very forum have repeatedly shown. Mindfulness has pretty much nothing to do with Buddhism as a religion, the meditation techniques recycled in psychology are thoroughly stripped of their religious nature, and all those Lululemon fans, stock market brokers and CEO’s dabbling in meditation, wellness, and the detox cures that usually go with all that, are the last people who would ever accept giving free food to someone who does pretty much nothing for society (in their view) except give the occasional inspirational talk.
Keep in mind that Buddhist texts are not yet all translated and were introduced to the west just a bit more than 100 years ago and that very slowly because it takes a lot of time to translate, analyze and put into practice.

With this taken into account we can say that Buddhism is growing as it's value is widely recognized by westerners exposed to it.
It can only be hoped that one day this will be verified, but this really sounds like just that... hope...
User1249x
Posts: 2749
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by User1249x »

lostitude wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:10 pm
User1249x wrote:Only a small minority is like millions of people.
But if this still amounts to one in a hundred, I don’t really see how any monastic community could easily thrive in such a setting. This is my actual question. I am aware that there are Buddhist monastic communities in the West but I’m pretty sure they would multiply and settle in a lot more different places if they could offer a bit more than just inspiration to those who already have the faith (i.e. mostly the Asian diaspora). So what I’d like to know is whether there is anything specifically preventing monks from doing more than just giving talks and advice to fellow buddhists.
Well there were no monastic buddhist communities 50 years ago at all. So it's growing right?
lostitude wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:10 pm
Buddhism is growing in the West in terms of per capita practitioners so this point you are making is unclear.
lostitude wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:10 pm I think this very statement is unclear. I personally don’t see it growing at all where I hail from. Are you writing this based on specific figures you’ve seen?
I made a mistake. What i shouldve said is that Buddhism is the religion which converts most native born people in the west.
• In sharp contrast to Islam and Hinduism, Buddhism in the U.S. is primarily made up of native-born adherents, whites and converts. Only one-in-three American Buddhists describe their race as Asian, while nearly three-in-four Buddhists say they are converts to Buddhism.

72% of American Buddhists are converts as compared to 27% originally born Buddhists.
https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-conte ... y-full.pdf
Other religions are far more comprised of immigrants and people born into those families.
Whoever inspires me and says wise things, from him i would take council and if people inspire me with their recluseship or asceticism it is great. If i know a brilliant engineer who is a satanist, i would listen to his engineering but not the satanism.
lostitude wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:10 pm Right. Concretely, will you give free food to that Muslim on a regular basis? That’s the crux of the matter.
With infinite resources yes i would. With finite resources it becomes wise to discriminate. If you had 1 person you can feed and the choice is between a virtuous person and a corrupt one, which is of greater benefit? It's a stain in a householder to seek primary beneficiaries of one's dana outside of the Sangha.
Buddhist ideas are getting a foothold in the fields of behavioral psychology and whatnot in the West. Any other religions do this?
lostitude wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:10 pm We both know this is a misrepresentation of the truth, as the numerous debates on this very forum have repeatedly shown. Mindfulness has pretty much nothing to do with Buddhism as a religion, the meditation techniques recycled in psychology are thoroughly stripped of their religious nature, and all those Lululemon fans, stock market brokers and CEO’s dabbling in meditation, wellness, and the detox cures that usually go with all that, are the last people who would ever accept giving free food to someone who does pretty much nothing for society (in their view) except give the occasional inspirational talk.
I wouldn't say it if it wasn't my conviction. I wouldn't want to get into disecting what means Buddhism and what it means to strip meditation of it's religious and doctrinal connection. We can leave this aside for now.
Keep in mind that Buddhist texts are not yet all translated and were introduced to the west just a bit more than 100 years ago and that very slowly because it takes a lot of time to translate, analyze and put into practice.

With this taken into account we can say that Buddhism is growing as it's value is widely recognized by westerners exposed to it.
lostitude wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:10 pm It can only be hoped that one day this will be verified, but this really sounds like just that... hope...
Well it's a fact that Buddhism has only recently been translated and is proving to be the doctrine that converts most westerners. Id guess that maybe Atheism can rival it in terms of converts but no other religion for sure. There is no need for hope to assert this truth.

Imo there is also a lack in terms of attainments among westerners, a lack in development of impressive qualities. There is a lot of opportunity to convert people but someone must step up and develop superhuman abilities. That would be like icing on the cake for western Buddhism and an ornament of the Sangha but it's not necessary. Monks have the best expectation in regards to this so people with right persuation will invest in people commited to the training.
Last edited by User1249x on Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
The2nd
Posts: 79
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:40 pm

Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by The2nd »

lostitude wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:23 pm Hello,

I’m sorry if the issue has been discussed before, but I haven’t found any similar topic in the last 4-5 pages of this forum section.

I know there are many things that monks cannot do due to specific rules. What are the activities that monks could engage in, at least in theory, which could be seen as beneficial to Western lay people?
Christian monks make wine, cheese and other such things, sometimes handiwork, which makes them more acceptable to Western society which tends to view passive, unproductive people rather negatively, especially when said people expect free support from the laity without contributing anything at all in return.

Thanks.
If a monks ASKS for daily food or has many material desires etc , then he can expect that laypeople would most likely want him to contribute to them in some direct way, for example, the western forest sangha (ajahn Chah tradition), they desire to live in beautiful accomodations and have many material luxuries , so in return they provide beautiful spaces that laypeple can have retreats in, spiritual socialising environments, free buffet everyday, chances to romantically meet other like-minded individuals, and opportunities to hear a monk say something about buddhism.

But if monks do not ask for material requisites, including food, then they will only be able to live in environments where there are people who see the value in there practices, such as seclusion, dispassion etc.

Laypeople do not need to give, and monks, not asking( provoking or hinting etc), do not need to pay for a gift freely given.

If monastics desire to live in environments that are luxurious or that have many safe guards, then naturally there will be a contributing to society by way of some sort of temple business activities, such as, house blessings, car blessings, birthday celebrations, retreat getaways, social festivals, chanting performances, talks on buddhism etc.

If a monastic wants to live in a place where he will only get bare minimum support, if he doesnt provide a temple business, then he can expect minimum support.

Laypeople are not forced to give, and if they are, and they still give, its still there choice to support people who force them to give.

Expecting payment for a GIFT would also be quite silly.
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17187
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by DNS »

lostitude wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:10 pm So what I’d like to know is whether there is anything specifically preventing monks from doing more than just giving talks and advice to fellow buddhists.
Yes, I think the Vinaya prevents the monks from engaging in trade. That is for laypeople.

There are some other Buddhist traditions that have had monks/nuns/priests engage in trade, for example, Bernie Glassman's bakery:
https://greystonbakery.com/pages/the-bakery-history

And then they use the funds to be self-sufficient, not having to rely on donations and also to pay for students room and board and then also for community engaged projects.

The drawback is that some make the trade the focus and lose interest in the practice as their time is consumed with manufacturing and trade. I recall one director (of another zen organization) saying that he had no time for practice and was basically a factory superintendent.
SarathW
Posts: 21227
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by SarathW »

Generally, monks are the unofficial psychologist in Sri Lankan society.
They are with you when your loved one dies to comfort you.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User1249x
Posts: 2749
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by User1249x »

SarathW wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:26 am Generally, monks are the unofficial psychologist in Sri Lankan society.
They are with you when your loved one dies to comfort you.
Not only in Sri Lanka, i have myself seen old western woman seek out monks to discuss the meaning of life & death in the West.
User avatar
JamesTheGiant
Posts: 2147
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:41 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by JamesTheGiant »

It's tricky...
The Buddhist monastery system wasn't designed for societies without a significant Buddhist population. The suttas mention that there must be support from Laypeople who are willing to feed monks, before the ground is ripe for a monastery to grow.
There are all sorts of analogies, such as a field which is ready for seeds, etc.

I know mahayana monks who work as chaplains or counsellors for six months of the year, and spend the other half of the year in a monastery. They don't follow all the vinaya however.

It may be possible for a theravada monk to work as a chaplain. With the salary money going direct to the monastery.

It's worth noting that a monk is not allowed to treat laypeople as a doctor.
So a bhikkhu practising formally as a counsellor or psychologist is not allowed, even if the bhikkhu doesn't receive any money.
Giving informal advice is permitted however, and it's quite common.
lostitude
Posts: 865
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:02 am

Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by lostitude »

User1249x wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:50 pm
lostitude wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:10 pm Right. Concretely, will you give free food to that Muslim on a regular basis? That’s the crux of the matter.
With infinite resources yes i would. With finite resources it becomes wise to discriminate. If you had 1 person you can feed and the choice is between a virtuous person and a corrupt one, which is of greater benefit? It's a stain in a householder to seek primary beneficiaries of one's dana outside of the Sangha.
You don’t need to justify yourself, your logic is perfectly understandable. But it goes to show exactly what I was pointing out, i.e. people are only willing to altruisticly give away things for free to monks who share the same beliefs, which becomes a problem if said beliefs are only shared by a really tiny fraction of the population (even if one thinks this tiny fraction is growing).
Well it's a fact that Buddhism has only recently been translated and is proving to be the doctrine that converts most westerners.
I think you are conflating unrelated data. Saying that Buddhism is the only religion that has more converts than "heritage" followers does in no way result in Buddhism being the doctrine that converts most Westerners. In my country that’s definitely Islam, and by far, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was the same in the US.
The2nd wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:09 am
If a monastic wants to live in a place where he will only get bare minimum support, if he doesnt provide a temple business, then he can expect minimum support.

Laypeople are not forced to give, and if they are, and they still give, its still there choice to support people who force them to give.

Expecting payment for a GIFT would also be quite silly.
You are approaching the issue purely from the perspective of people’s motivations. But as a matter of fact, there NEEDS to be a minimum number of people who will everday provide for the monks, otherwise these monks will die. Of course these people giving food as a gift expect nothing in return, but there NEEDS to be such people around in the first place. So there is actually an obligation, from a "macro" point of view.
JamesTheGiant wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:23 am It's worth noting that a monk is not allowed to treat laypeople as a doctor.
So a bhikkhu practising formally as a counsellor or psychologist is not allowed, even if the bhikkhu doesn't receive any money.
Even if the monk happens to be a trained psychologist?

What about free educational support to kids struggling at school for example?
lostitude
Posts: 865
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:02 am

Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by lostitude »

An interesting chart I found on the World Economic Forum website:
Image
User avatar
Dhamma Chameleon
Posts: 584
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:55 am

Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

In this interview with Ajahn Sona a wandering monk in northeast America talks about the benefit he brings to the communities he stays in.
lostitude
Posts: 865
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:02 am

Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by lostitude »

Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:21 am In this interview with Ajahn Sona a wandering monk in northeast America talks about the benefit he brings to the communities he stays in.
Thank you but the video is 45 minutes long, could you give a rough indication of when he talks about this?
Thanks.

EDIT: I ended up watching the entire video because it turned out to be really interesting and it seems to prove that it’s possible to live as a wandering hermit in the US. It also provoked a few other questions that I will ask in another thread. Thanks!
User avatar
Dhamma Chameleon
Posts: 584
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:55 am

Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

lostitude wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:28 pm EDIT: I ended up watching the entire video because it turned out to be really interesting and it seems to prove that it’s possible to live as a wandering hermit in the US. It also provoked a few other questions that I will ask in another thread. Thanks!
Great! I was going to suggest you watch it anyway, I'm really glad you did. An inspiring monk.
Post Reply