Material contribution of monks to society

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
lostitude
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Material contribution of monks to society

Post by lostitude »

Hello,

I’m sorry if the issue has been discussed before, but I haven’t found any similar topic in the last 4-5 pages of this forum section.

I know there are many things that monks cannot do due to specific rules. What are the activities that monks could engage in, at least in theory, which could be seen as beneficial to Western lay people?
Christian monks make wine, cheese and other such things, sometimes handiwork, which makes them more acceptable to Western society which tends to view passive, unproductive people rather negatively, especially when said people expect free support from the laity without contributing anything at all in return.

Thanks.
dharmacorps
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Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by dharmacorps »

lostitude wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:23 pm
I know there are many things that monks cannot do due to specific rules. What are the activities that monks could engage in, at least in theory, which could be seen as beneficial to Western lay people?

Teaching and practicing the dhamma.
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by salayatananirodha »

http://buddhadust.net/dhamma-vinaya/pts/mn/mn.003.horn.pts.htm wrote:[2] "Monks, become my heirs of Dhamma,
not heirs of material things.[2]

I have sympathy with you and think:

'How may disciples become my heirs of Dhamma,
not heirs of material things?'

If you, monks, should become heirs of material things,
not heirs of Dhamma,
not only may you become in consequence
those of whom it is said:

'The Teacher's disciples
are heirs of material things,
not heirs of [17] Dhamma,'

but I too may become in consequence
one of whom it is said:

'The Teacher's disciples
are heirs of material things,
not heirs of Dhamma,'

But if you, monks, should become my heirs of Dhamma,
not heirs of material things,
then you may become in consequence
those of whom it is said:

'The Teacher's disciples
are heirs of Dhamma,
not heirs of material things,'

and I too may become in consequence
one of whom it is said:

'The Teacher's disciples
are heirs of Dhamma,
not heirs of material things.'

Therefore, monks, become my heirs of Dhamma,,
not heirs of material things.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by Ceisiwr »

lostitude wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:23 pm Hello,

I’m sorry if the issue has been discussed before, but I haven’t found any similar topic in the last 4-5 pages of this forum section.

I know there are many things that monks cannot do due to specific rules. What are the activities that monks could engage in, at least in theory, which could be seen as beneficial to Western lay people?
Christian monks make wine, cheese and other such things, sometimes handiwork, which makes them more acceptable to Western society which tends to view passive, unproductive people rather negatively, especially when said people expect free support from the laity without contributing anything at all in return.

Thanks.
From such a materialist point of view, nothing.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
lostitude
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Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by lostitude »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:59 pm
lostitude wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:23 pm Hello,

I’m sorry if the issue has been discussed before, but I haven’t found any similar topic in the last 4-5 pages of this forum section.

I know there are many things that monks cannot do due to specific rules. What are the activities that monks could engage in, at least in theory, which could be seen as beneficial to Western lay people?
Christian monks make wine, cheese and other such things, sometimes handiwork, which makes them more acceptable to Western society which tends to view passive, unproductive people rather negatively, especially when said people expect free support from the laity without contributing anything at all in return.

Thanks.
From such a materialist point of view, nothing.
It would simply be the point of view of anyone who is not a Buddhist, I don’t really see the problem being with materialism.
I think Western societies would see meaningful contributions from any monk (whatever the religion) who also taught math or foreign languages to struggling students or did cleaning chores in public places or even people’s homes, or any other such activity that I can’t even think of off the top of my head.

From a non-Buddhist point of view, the paradigm of "you give me free lunch and I practice MY religion" simply makes no sense. I’m wondering if there could be any possibility to make it work, the way Christian monks make it work.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by Ceisiwr »

lostitude wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:32 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:59 pm
lostitude wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:23 pm Hello,

I’m sorry if the issue has been discussed before, but I haven’t found any similar topic in the last 4-5 pages of this forum section.

I know there are many things that monks cannot do due to specific rules. What are the activities that monks could engage in, at least in theory, which could be seen as beneficial to Western lay people?
Christian monks make wine, cheese and other such things, sometimes handiwork, which makes them more acceptable to Western society which tends to view passive, unproductive people rather negatively, especially when said people expect free support from the laity without contributing anything at all in return.

Thanks.
From such a materialist point of view, nothing.
It would simply be the point of view of anyone who is not a Buddhist, I don’t really see the problem being with materialism.
I think Western societies would see meaningful contributions from any monk (whatever the religion) who also taught math or foreign languages to struggling students or did cleaning chores in public places or even people’s homes, or any other such activity that I can’t even think of off the top of my head.

From a non-Buddhist point of view, the paradigm of "you give me free lunch and I practice MY religion" simply makes no sense. I’m wondering if there could be any possibility to make it work, the way Christian monks make it work.
Why would we want to change Buddhism to suit non-Buddhists? Doesn’t make sense. Materialism is a wrong view.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
lostitude
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Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by lostitude »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:01 pm
Why would we want to change Buddhism to suit non-Buddhists? Doesn’t make sense.
This is not what I wrote. I asked what Buddhist monks (i.e. monks keeping to the rules) could do which could be seen by Westerners as beneficial to a typical Western society.
Materialism is a wrong view.
Yes you’ve already said so, and I already pointed out that it’s not about being materialistic. Otherwise one could argue similarly that Buddhist monks going on almsrounds is materialistic.
The question here is about making a meaningful contribution to a society that does not necessarily share your religious beliefs.

I think this question is best approached by setting aside any Buddhist-centered tunnel vision and keeping in mind that not everyone sees how a Buddhist monk is a beneficial member of society, as opposed to a parasite, a dead weight, and why he deserves to be materially supported.
lostitude
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Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by lostitude »

dharmacorps wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:41 pm
lostitude wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:23 pm
I know there are many things that monks cannot do due to specific rules. What are the activities that monks could engage in, at least in theory, which could be seen as beneficial to Western lay people?

Teaching and practicing the dhamma.
I had in mind this vast majority of citizens who have zero interest in the Dhamma yet would still be likely to approve of supporting a Buddhist monk doing XYZ for society (XYZ being what I’m seeking to define here). Just as Christian monks who actually work and are productive are generally respected and held in esteem by non-religious members of society and are not seen as parasitic freeloaders.
lostitude
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Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by lostitude »

salayatananirodha wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:57 pm
http://buddhadust.net/dhamma-vinaya/pts/mn/mn.003.horn.pts.htm wrote:[2] "Monks, become my heirs of Dhamma,
not heirs of material things.[2]
Thank you, however I’m not sure how this is supposed to convince, say, my grandmother, that a monk spending his life meditating alone deserves a share of the food she’s been toiling to get, without having to do anything for her in return.
User1249x
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Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by User1249x »

Thus have I heard:

On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Dakkhinagiri (monastery), in the brahmana village Ekanala, in Magadha. Now at that time, it being the sowing season, five hundred plows of the brahman Kasibharadvaja were put to use. Then in the forenoon the Blessed One having dressed himself, took bowl and (double) robe, and went to the place where brahman Kasibharadvaja's work was going on. It was the time of food distribution by the brahman, and the Blessed One drew near, and stood at one side. Bharadvaja seeing the Blessed One standing there for alms said to him:

"Recluse, I do plow, and do sow, and having plowed and sown I eat. You also, recluse should plow and sow; having plowed and sown you should eat."

"I, too, brahman, plow and sow; having plowed and sown, I eat."

"We do not see the Venerable Gotama's yoke, or plow, or plowshare, or goad or oxen. Nevertheless the Venerable Gotama says: 'I, too, brahman, plow and sow; having plowed and sown, I eat.'"

Thereupon the brahman addressed the Blessed One in a stanza:

1. "You profess to be a plowman, yet your plow we do not see; asked about your plow and the rest, tell us of them that we may know."

[The Buddha:]

2. "Faith is my seed, austerity the rain, wisdom my yoke and plow, modesty is the pole, mind the strap, mindfulness is my plowshare and goad.

3. "Controlled in speech and conduct, guarded in deed and speech, abstemious in food,[1] I make truth my weed cutter; arahantship, my deliverance complete.

4. "Exertion, my team in yoke, draws me to Nibbana's security, and on it goes without stopping, wither gone one does not suffer.

5. "Thuswise is this plowing plowed which bears the fruit of Deathlessness; having plowed this plowing one is freed from every ill."
Now you say 'material' gain but if i press you on what exactly is material gain, i think it would be impossible to draw any meaningful distinction.

In general the contribution is uncompromising freedom from every ill and of social value is the restraint of behavior that is based on greed, anger and delusion in a population and an overall improvement of the population's well-being due to eradication of qualities which corrupt people.
lostitude
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Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by lostitude »

User1249x wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:32 pm
1. "You profess to be a plowman, yet your plow we do not see; asked about your plow and the rest, tell us of them that we may know."

[The Buddha:]

2. "Faith is my seed, austerity the rain, wisdom my yoke and plow, modesty is the pole, mind the strap, mindfulness is my plowshare and goad.

3. "Controlled in speech and conduct, guarded in deed and speech, abstemious in food,[1] I make truth my weed cutter; arahantship, my deliverance complete.

4. "Exertion, my team in yoke, draws me to Nibbana's security, and on it goes without stopping, wither gone one does not suffer.

5. "Thuswise is this plowing plowed which bears the fruit of Deathlessness; having plowed this plowing one is freed from every ill."
And yet despite sowing and plowing the Buddha didn’t eat what he sowed but rather ate what other people sowed and plowed. Such a text might be convincing to an already convinced Buddhist, but if we’re being objective and neutral for a minute, such a justification makes absolutely no sense to a non-Buddhist.
In general the contribution is uncompromising freedom from every ill and of social value is the restraint of behavior that is based on greed, anger and delusion in a population and an overall improvement of the population's well-being due to eradication of qualities which corrupt people.
Are you sure? it may be the individual result achieved by the practising monk - certainly not by the overall population who has no special interest in whatever he teaches. Again I’m not talking about traditionally Buddhist societies where such things are taken for granted.
Last edited by lostitude on Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by Ceisiwr »

lostitude wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:20 pm
This is not what I wrote. I asked what Buddhist monks (i.e. monks keeping to the rules) could do which could be seen by Westerners as beneficial to a typical Western society.
Some Westerners already see something beneficial. What if we don’t want the monks to forget their rules and engage in trade? I see no need for the sangha to conform to what some materialist westerners want, for their approval.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User1249x
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Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by User1249x »

lostitude wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:57 pm
User1249x wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:32 pm
1. "You profess to be a plowman, yet your plow we do not see; asked about your plow and the rest, tell us of them that we may know."

[The Buddha:]

2. "Faith is my seed, austerity the rain, wisdom my yoke and plow, modesty is the pole, mind the strap, mindfulness is my plowshare and goad.

3. "Controlled in speech and conduct, guarded in deed and speech, abstemious in food,[1] I make truth my weed cutter; arahantship, my deliverance complete.

4. "Exertion, my team in yoke, draws me to Nibbana's security, and on it goes without stopping, wither gone one does not suffer.

5. "Thuswise is this plowing plowed which bears the fruit of Deathlessness; having plowed this plowing one is freed from every ill."
And yet despite sowing and plowing the Buddha didn’t eat what he sowed but rather ate what other people sowed and plowed. Such a text might be convincing to an already convinced Buddhist, but if we’re being objective and neutral for a minute, such a justification makes absolutely no sense to a non-Buddhist.
People in general don't eat what they sow lest they are the farmer.

Think of it as a soacial worker, a teacher, philosopher, a life coach and whatnot that just gets alms instead of money thay he would buy food with.

In fact just looking at a monk and thinking of such discipline and virtues that they pursue is seen as priceless by many.
Last edited by User1249x on Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:07 pm, edited 4 times in total.
lostitude
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Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by lostitude »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:58 pm
lostitude wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:20 pm
This is not what I wrote. I asked what Buddhist monks (i.e. monks keeping to the rules) could do which could be seen by Westerners as beneficial to a typical Western society.
Some Westerners already see something beneficial.
Maybe, but the immense majority do not. You are not addressing the issue I have raised.
What if we don’t want the monks to forget their rules and engage in trade? I see no need for the sangha to conform to what some materialist westerners want, for their approval.
Materialism, again? I wish you’d read what I write and respond to it instead of just repeating the same thing over and over...
You have changed a lot Ceisiwr these past few months :shrug:
lostitude
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Re: Material contribution of monks to society

Post by lostitude »

User1249x wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:00 pm
Think of it as a soacial worker, a teacher, a life coach that just gets alms instead of money thay he would buy food with.
Sure, but this is only true for Buddhists. Are you going to give alms to a Muslim ascetic in exchange for his teachings on Allah and Prophet Muhammad?

I think you all are losing track of what I was asking:
What are the activities that monks could engage in, at least in theory, which could be seen as beneficial to Western lay people?
Thanks.
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